Whales & dolphins are so intelligent they deserve same rights as humans, say experts

[Traitorfish]

Yes and yes. Our own species comes first.

Dolphins clearly aren't as smart as us anyway, since if they were they could defend their own rights.

Our species, as a whole, through intelligence, has the right to rights. With this comes the responsibility to defend the younger and less fortunate of us.

So a child should be allow to vote, or a senile person to travel feely? They are undeniably human, after all, so any set of unqualified "human rights" would also extend to them.

Are you suggesting that future slaves didn't have a society before/during/after becoming slaves with a similar level of complexity as Europeans? And before breaking down my use of "similar" surely you can see the difference between the worst you could ever possibly say about African/of whatever societies and the best that you could ever say about those of animals.

Well, indigenous Australian societies were self-evidently incapable of standing up to Western colonialism, and your original post demanded that individuals demonstrate themselves as capable of forming such a society before any rights would be accorded to them, so... That's where it leads you. Don't blame me because your logic is horrible.

 

[Mise]

Reading thru this thread it's strange how downright angry people seem to get about the ideal that any animal deserves... well, any rights at all. I wonder what's the psychology behind that.

It's crazy isn't it. It's as if some people are so insecure about their own intelligence that they need to maintain that other animals aren't capable of the same kinds of thoughts that they are. They seem to feel threatened by the idea that an animal can display the kind of intelligence and reasoning power that they assumed was what made them unique. I can only assume that their knee-jerk revulsion to acknowledging animal intelligence is rooted in insecurities about their own intelligence.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

I can confirm this theory as evidenced by my comfort with my stupidity and my support for the whales and dolphins

 

[El_Machinae]

@El Mac- A Down Syndrome person is a person with a chromosomal disorder, not an different species

So why can't a whale also be a person with a chromosomal disorder?

 

[asbestos]

While we're on the topic, does a down syndrome whale have the same natural rights as a regular whale?

 

[Ayn Rand]

While we're on the topic, does a down syndrome whale have the same natural rights as a regular whale?

That's a brilliant question.

 

[Mise]

I'm sorry, but I will never recognise Wales as having rights.

 

[Crezth]

ridiculous, no animal is equal to man.

Purge the alien!

 

[Hygro]

I agree that we have an obligation to see to the general welfare of the planet, but having dominion over something pretty much precludes that something having equal rights to yours.

If I'm trapped somewhere with another human and we're gonna starve without food, and there is no food around, well...that's too bad, we starve and die. If I'm trapped with a dolphin, guess what. Yeah, sorry charlie, I'm eating dolphin burgers. I couldn't do that if they had EQUAL rights (such as to life) as humans.

That doesn't contradict what you think it does. Equal rights is a definition under the law. Your argument here is that under extreme circumstances you are going to break laws, leading to the strong winning. But that's true in any other situation between humans as well.

 

[Yeekim]

It's crazy isn't it. It's as if some people are so insecure about their own intelligence that they need to maintain that other animals aren't capable of the same kinds of thoughts that they are. They seem to feel threatened by the idea that an animal can display the kind of intelligence and reasoning power that they assumed was what made them unique. I can only assume that their knee-jerk revulsion to acknowledging animal intelligence is rooted in insecurities about their own intelligence.

Yes, that's certainly how it feels.
EDIT: I could also understand a religious reason - the whole "being made after the image of God" thing.

 

[BvBPL]

I'm sorry, but I will never recognise Wales as having rights.

But the songs of Welshmen held in captivity, like the famous Tom Jones, have brought joy and beauty to so many observers. It is not unusual to love any of those “Wales Songs,” or, by extensions, the large mammals that sing them.

 

[Mise]

"Wales Songs"

 

[Tani Coyote]

I believe Russel Edgington's "We will eat you, after we eat your children" quip says a lot about human relations with animals.

---

All other known species are inherently not our equals; when was the last time you saw a dolphin city? Or monkeys building a nuclear missile? Or birds landing on the Moon? They are beneath us.

That doesn't mean we can't treat them with some respect and if we must kill them, do so mercifully(as they can feel pain), but to give them the same exact rights as humans? Oh god. I'd love to see a pig try to vote.

 

[aelf]

All other known species are inherently not our equals; when was the last time you saw a dolphin city? Or monkeys building a nuclear missile? Or birds landing on the Moon? They are beneath us.

Have some respect for your ancestors, boy.

 

[Crezth]

Yes and yes. Our own species comes first.

Dolphins clearly aren't as smart as us anyway, since if they were they could defend their own rights.

Our species, as a whole, through intelligence, has the right to rights. With this comes the responsibility to defend the younger and less fortunate of us.

All other known species are inherently not our equals; when was the last time you saw a dolphin city? Or monkeys building a nuclear missile? Or birds landing on the Moon? They are beneath us.

Why, oh why, does the right to rights always come down to the ability to defend them? I've never seen such colossal spewing of "might makes right" anywhere outside of, well, Stormfront to be honest. Or perhaps another apologist website for imperialist balderdash.

If dolphins and whales are intelligent and empathic, we should treat them with the same respect as our fellow man. Thinking otherwise is just opening up a barrel of worms, all of them ready to wriggle all over our carefully constructed world-views by the time we make First Contact and have to deal with another species as intelligent as (and perhaps more intelligent than) our own. What, then, will be the criteria for "rights" as such? And if it remains "might makes right," then I hope to whatever deity you choose that those aliens don't think the same, and have the firepower to back it up.

 

[El_Machinae]

All other known species are inherently not our equals; when was the last time you saw a dolphin city? Or monkeys building a nuclear missile? Or birds landing on the Moon? They are beneath us.

Maybe the specieists could explain why we should grant rights to those with Down's Syndrome? Now, be careful, because the specieist arguments don't seem to fly once we acknowledge that 'species' is a genetic definition

I've never seen a Down's Syndrome community build a nuclear missile on the Moon, either.

 

[Yeekim]

Also, what technology would orcas even need?
Unlike us pesky primates, they don't exactly have to worry about predators or enhance their ability to hunt game...

 

[peter grimes]

All other known species are inherently not our equals; when was the last time you saw a dolphin city? Or monkeys building a nuclear missile? Or birds landing on the Moon? They are beneath us.

But you're rejecting all the amazing things non-human animals do every day - bats use sonar, bees and ants form cities larger than ours, some animals hunt with tasers, others use ESP to find food. Seriously, making things from steel and glass isn't the be-all-end-all.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Thinking otherwise is just opening up a barrel of worms, all of them ready to wriggle all over our carefully constructed world-views by the time we make First Contact and have to deal with another species as intelligent as (and perhaps more intelligent than) our own. What, then, will be the criteria for "rights" as such? And if it remains "might makes right," then I hope to whatever deity you choose that those aliens don't think the same, and have the firepower to back it up.

How is this relevant to what you are arguing? Whether or not the aliens believe in "might makes right" has no bearing on how we should treat cetaceans.

 

[Traitorfish]

All other known species are inherently not our equals; when was the last time you saw a dolphin city? Or monkeys building a nuclear missile? Or birds landing on the Moon? They are beneath us.

Um, why?