What after the New Frontier Pass - the end or more

[Wielki Hegemon]

I think science victory is second worst victory type in a game after diplomatic one. Just linear grind for science and production and clicking next turn at the end. Culture one is fine but very badly explained and hard to monitoring. Religion one is ok but subjectivly many people might not like it. Just a domination but with lightnings instead of gunpowder.

 

[Gedemon]

Honestly I don't understand the desire for an economic victory, like at all. Its like a perfect example of "more for the sake of more." Economy is the means not the ends.

But we can say that for all victory types, except for a total conquest victory type.

I know people want it but I just don't see it, like I don't understand the point of exhuming concepts like ideologies that don't really fit in this game, just because they were. in a previous iteration. if anything vii could be pared down a bit from 6 (or at least cleaned up).

Ideologies were nice additions for late game diplomacy in civ5, and diplomacy is, by far, the worst mechanism of civ6 IMO.

 

[PiR]

I've enough of constantly choosing Science Victory, and I'm not the type of Player who enjoys conquering Cities. I'm more of a Builder who prefers to play longer Games (usually on Marathon or longer (Mods)) to have plenty of Time to micromanage my Empire. And what Victory Type suits this type of play better than an Economic one? It could be something else, I only want something realistic to be viewed as a Victory.

There could be also a Happiness/Friedom Victory. Where you have to have the Majority of your Cities' Citizens with ecstatic Happiness and Peace with all Civs in the Game (Government and Policies could be the main keys in ordder to reach this). Just an Idea.

Can't you add victories via a mod?

 

[Zegangani]

Can't you add victories via a mod?

Yes, you can. here is an example: Wonder Victory.
However, it requires more than just coding to make a solid new Victory Type, you also have to make it's own Victory Movie/Scene + the Narrator Speach, but I think you can reuse the Scenes from the other Victory Types, and the Score Victory can be reused for many Victory Types without it feeling out of place.

I don't mind that as long as you can mod the conditions for a Victory, but it would be nice to have a proper End Speach+Scene (I don't think anyone here has the Phone Number of Sean Bean, or do someone? He's currently on Snowpiercer and surviving an alternate Future where everything has freezed, perhaps we can start with an Alternate Future Survival Victory by cutting his talk from the Show ?).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Why I want an Economic Victory Type: Because I dislike Victories like Religion or Culture Victories. Religion isn't something that you can control and force People to accept, and a Culture Victory shouldn't even exist. A civ can't be culturally better than other Civs because it has more Tourists than others.
Science and Domination Victories are reasonable. A Civ CAN be better in Science than other Civs, or Dominate the landmasses.
The Diplomatic Victory is a good Victory Type, since it demands diplomatic skills and patience to please other Civs and keep Peace. It's just poorly Designed in Civ VI. Achieving a DiploV Points Threshold for a DiploVictory doesn't appeal to me.
The Score Victory is Ok. Could be expanded more, but it's ok.

Though I'd like a economic victory, I'm not sure that I'd outright want it to replace another victory.
That being said religion throughout history is something that people can control and force people to accept. That's how some religions came to be anyway without getting into specifics.

Maybe instead of making them separate though being the dominant religion in the world is only one step of a "cultural" victory and tourism can be another. In order to win a culture victory you have to be dominant in both the secular realm and religious realm of the world.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Can't you add victories via a mod?

Look at the balance of all mods (by balance here I mean power creep). It's not a good idea

 

[LMT]

In previous games, and implicitly if not effectively in Civ6 as well, what Culture Victory represents is one's culture becoming dominant over others, and this is certainly a thing that has happened many times in history. The Hellenistic Era is called that because Greek culture creeped into all the cultures surrounding the Mediterranean and even into Central and South Asia to some degree. Virtually all of the cultures surrounding Persia have been heavily influenced by Persian culture, and Persian culture in turn has been heavily influenced by Arab and Turkic cultures. Right now we can see literally the entire world being pummeled with American (or at least "Western") culture.

I think one thing that would make a Cultural Victory more relevant is to somehow add language and/or currency as a component to it. One way to gauge just how strong an influence American culture has on the world is how prevalent English is spoken globally and how often US Dollars are used as either an informal currency or held as foreign exchange reserves. I guess the trade aspect of Civ does kind of incorporate the currency aspect to culture, but not that much.

US-based entertainment spreads American culture as well, but Civ seems to have that aspect covered.

American cultural prevalence around the world is not mostly due to foreign tourism (though yes, the US does indeed have a lot of foreign tourists).

 

[Zegangani]

Though I'd like a economic victory, I'm not sure that I'd outright want it to replace another victory.
That being said religion throughout history is something that people can control and force people to accept. That's how some religions came to be anyway without getting into specifics.

Yep, People tried to force others to accept a religion, and they succeed at that, but a lot followed that Religion only Publicly. But secretly, they kept following their original Relegion/Belief. I agree, it worked on the long run, if they kept forcing people to accept that religion. But that's something that only some Civs did and only durring certain Periods. A lot of Civs (if not the majority of them) are really tolerant in regard of religion and Beliefs (Berbers for example), so it's not something that we can apply to all Civs.

Maybe instead of making them separate though being the dominant religion in the world is only one step of a "cultural" victory and tourism can be another. In order to win a culture victory you have to be dominant in both the secular realm and religious realm of the world.

I'm glad you brought this up. Relgion indeed can be spread like Culture. Although it can be part of one's Culture, however it isn't tyed to it, as many Civs have different Cultures but share the same Religion (assuming they are relegious).
So we can have a Religion Domination Victory if a Religion has spread (indirectly and/or directly) to all the Civs and is the Dominant in the majority of them. And a Culture Victory can be achieved similarly, including having one's Religion spread to other Civs, but it doesn't have to be a Condition, as Civs can be not relegious (but have their own Beliefs).

Look at the balance of all mods (by balance here I mean power creep). It's not a good idea

I think many Mods are more balanced than some Elements of the game. And they even make the Game more balanced. So although a lot of modes break the balance of the game, that doesn't apply to all of them.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

I don't think we need to add other layers to Culture Victory and make it even more complicated Victory condition mechanically should be as elegant and simple as possible can from the one hand but deep and archivable in different ways and with different strategies from the other. What you propose is perhaps interesting from a historical simulation point of view, but from game mechanics, it is just bad. Victory conditions as a whole are one of the weakest points of Civilization VI. Modern euro board games (Civilization is actually the one, but digitalized) found many good solutions for the problem of the race for points, snowballing, and repeatability of the game with a good victory condition design. I think the whole old-school idea of science victory, culture victory is a blind road that limits design space for those issues in a long-term perspective (Civilization VII and future iterations of the franchise).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't think we need to add other layers to Culture Victory and make it even more complicated Victory condition mechanically should be as elegant and simple as possible can from the one hand but deep and archivable in different ways and with different strategies from the other. What you propose is perhaps interesting from a historical simulation point of view, but from game mechanics, it is just bad. Victory conditions as a whole are one of the weakest points of Civilization VI. Modern euro board games (Civilization is actually the one, but digitalized) found many good solutions for the problem of the race for points, snowballing, and repeatability of the game with a good victory condition design. I think the whole old-school idea of science victory, culture victory is a blind road that limits design space for those issues in a long-term perspective (Civilization VII and future iterations of the franchise).

I was proposing the changes for possible Civ VII, considering it's too late to do anything in Civ 6.
Though I'd be perfectly fine with having 6 or 7 victory types I think that there is a possibility that the current religious victory could be implemented into a cultural victory or diplomatic victory making room for an economic victory in the future.

 

[Zegangani]

I don't think we need to add other layers to Culture Victory and make it even more complicated Victory condition mechanically should be as elegant and simple as possible can from the one hand but deep and archivable in different ways and with different strategies from the other. What you propose is perhaps interesting from a historical simulation point of view, but from game mechanics, it is just bad. Victory conditions as a whole are one of the weakest points of Civilization VI. Modern euro board games (Civilization is actually the one, but digitalized) found many good solutions for the problem of the race for points, snowballing, and repeatability of the game with a good victory condition design. I think the whole old-school idea of science victory, culture victory is a blind road that limits design space for those issues in a long-term perspective (Civilization VII and future iterations of the franchise).

One thing that dissapoints me in Civ VI, is that it feels like a Board Game where it has potential to be much better than that, especially on PC, where you have nearly every possibility you can Imagine. The conditions for a Victory for example, could be much more Complex/deeper (but not necessarily complicated), and with a good UI you would have always an Overview of everything, and you could just follow the advices that are shown on the UI (like the Real Era Tracker Mod does).

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

I was proposing the changes for possible Civ VII, considering it's too late to do anything in Civ 6.
Though I'd be perfectly fine with having 6 or 7 victory types I think that there is a possibility that the current religious victory could be implemented into a cultural victory or diplomatic victory making room for an economic victory in the future.

Why do we must have any victory types at all? I think the best idea (also based on euro board-games) is to:
1. make a victory condition changing for each game
2. Composed of a few mini-quests (you will not be always focused on a one resource grind from the beginning, and you will have to use more flexible strategies)
3. Changeable overtime of the game. For example, at the start of the game you see the first set of mini-quests, after the classical era the second part, and after the industrial era the third part. So the game will be engaging in each stage of the game.
As I said, this silos-focused victory type is a blind and limiting road in my opinion.
@Zegangani believe me many board games, menage with win conditions issues better than a Civ 6. Deeper and complex victory conditions I understand as harder to master, requiring more flexible strategies and as resistant to meta-game as they can. It is achievable. But thirst of all let's get out of the ruts of this victory condition scheme we are stuck now.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Why do we must have any victory types at all? I think the best idea (also based on euro board-games) is to:
1. make a victory condition changing for each game
2. Composed of a few mini-quests (you will not be always focused on a one resource grind from the beginning, and you will have to use more flexible strategies)
3. Changeable overtime of the game. For example, at the start of the game you see the first set of mini-quests, after the classical era the second part, and after the industrial era the third part. So the game will be engaging in each stage of the game.
As I said, this silos-focused victory type is a blind and limiting road in my opinion.
@Zegangani believe me many board games, menage with win conditions issues better than a Civ 6. Deeper and complex victory conditions I understand as harder to master, requiring more flexible strategies and as resistant to meta-game as they can. It is achievable. But thirst of all let's get out of the ruts of this victory condition scheme we are stuck now.

Yes, I'm actually hoping for ONE victory type that somehow represents the overall accomplishments of a civ. You could get there with religion, or science, etc.; or some combination of.

 

[PiR]

I don't think anyone here has the Phone Number of Sean Bean, or do someone? He's currently on Snowpiercer and surviving an alternate Future where everything has freezed, perhaps we can start with an Alternate Future Survival Victory by cutting his talk from the Show ?

I cannot find him on twitter, if he has an account there, we could all ping him at the same time.



For victories, many Civ 4 mods did a good creating new ones. I don't why not for 6.

 

[Zegangani]

Why do we must have any victory types at all? I think the best idea (also based on euro board-games) is to:
1. make a victory condition changing for each game
2. Composed of a few mini-quests (you will not be always focused on a one resource grind from the beginning, and you will have to use more flexible strategies)
3. Changeable overtime of the game. For example, at the start of the game you see the first set of mini-quests, after the classical era the second part, and after the industrial era the third part. So the game will be engaging in each stage of the game.
As I said, this silos-focused victory type is a blind and limiting road in my opinion.
@Zegangani believe me many board games, menage with win conditions issues better than a Civ 6. Deeper and complex victory conditions I understand as harder to master, requiring more flexible strategies and as resistant to meta-game as they can. It is achievable. But thirst of all let's get out of the ruts of this victory condition scheme we are stuck now.

I would really welcome that. Victories for certain Elements of the Game (Science, Culture, Diplo...) get boring with Time, especially if they have strict conditions. A Score Victory ala Humakind's Fame Systeme, would be much better. Because, as you kindly illustrated, having dynamic "quests" that change with Time/Era, that the achievement of them add up to the Score Victory would be much more suitable for a Victory.

But Honestly, I doubt FXS will change something about the Victory Types, especially since Humankind has taken the Score Victory and expanded on it. So, unfortunately it's unlikely that FXS will make a Victory similar to the Fame Victory (Every Franchise wants to be different/better than its Competetor(s)), but maybe they will expand on the different Victory Types for Civ7.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I would really welcome that. Victories for certain Elements of the Game (Science, Culture, Diplo...) get boring with Time, especially if they have strict conditions. A Score Victory ala Humakind's Fame Systeme, would be much better. Because, as you kindly illustrated, having dynamic "quests" that change with Time/Era, that the achievement of them add up to the Score Victory would be much more suitable for a Victory.

But Honestly, I doubt FXS will change something about the Victory Types, especially since Humankind has taken the Score Victory and expanded on it. So, unfortunately it's unlikely that FXS will make a Victory similar to the Fame Victory (Every Franchise wants to be different/better than its Competetor(s)), but maybe they will expand on the different Victory Types for Civ7.

Yes that is one instance where even though it might make sense, it wouldn't feel like a civilization game. I'd put the immortal leaders in the same category as what makes civilization stand out from other 4X historical games.
The one thing I wouldn't mind changing is starting having an era before the Ancient Era where everyone can wander around like nomads, like Humankind does.

 

[Zegangani]

I cannot find him on twitter, if he has an account there, we could all ping him at the same time.

For victories, many Civ 4 mods did a good creating new ones. I don't why not for 6.

I can't speak for other Modders, but myself. You have to know that Civ VI modding is stricted in many ways. We sure can make a lot of new stuff (a new Victory Type for example) and perhaps alter some of the existing Elements/Mechanisms of the game, but the main reasons why you don't see comlex Mods are the lack of Modding documentation (most of the time, modding it's a try and fail process, which is really tiring and frustrating, especially if it's just a simple modification that you're tackling) and the inability to make AI make (proper) use of the content of a Mod.

Let's take a new Victory Type as an example, we actually could mod any new Victory Type with any Conditions that are possible, but we can't mod the AI to try to accomplish its Conditions. Although we can 'encourage' it to pursue a certain Victory Type (I can only refer to the Game's Victories not modded ones), we can't set it's priorities in doing so (consistently), hence, we will just get a new Victory Type that only the Human Player can pursue efficiently.

 

[tedhebert]

I think science victory is second worst victory type in a game after diplomatic one. Just linear grind for science and production and clicking next turn at the end. Culture one is fine but very badly explained and hard to monitoring. Religion one is ok but subjectivly many people might not like it. Just a domination but with lightnings instead of gunpowder.

As a player who uses huge maps systematically in all games, I am going to have to disagree severely here... like 100%...

NOTHING is worse than religious victory conditions on a huge map... Nothing !

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

But Honestly, I doubt FXS will change something about the Victory Types, especially since Humankind has taken the Score Victory and expanded on it. So, unfortunately it's unlikely that FXS will make a Victory similar to the Fame Victory (Every Franchise wants to be different/better than its Competetor(s)), but maybe they will expand on the different Victory Types for Civ7.

I don't know if the presence of Humankind might affect their decision as it comes to a victory condition, but nevertheless unfortunately I share your doubts here.

As a player who uses huge maps systematically in all games, I am going to habe to disagree severely here... like 100%...

NOTHING is worse than religious victory conditions on a huge map... Nothing !

Not gonna argue I don't like huge maps and never play them You gave me another reason not to try it

 

[PiR]

I can't speak for other Modders, but myself. You have to know that Civ VI modding is stricted in many ways. We sure can make a lot of new stuff (a new Victory Type for example) and perhaps alter some of the existing Elements/Mechanisms of the game, but the main reasons why you don't see comlex Mods are the lack of Modding documentation (most of the time, modding it's a try and fail process, which is really tiring and frustrating, especially if it's just a simple modification that you're tackling) and the inability to make AI make (proper) use of the content of a Mod.

Let's take a new Victory Type as an example, we actually could mod any new Victory Type with any Conditions that are possible, but we can't mod the AI to try to accomplish its Conditions. Although we can 'encourage' it to pursue a certain Victory Type (I can only refer to the Game's Victories not modded ones), we can't set it's priorities in doing so (consistently), hence, we will just get a new Victory Type that only the Human Player can pursue efficiently.

I see. That's too bad.
Can we still make something like changing where they like to settle?
Probably what I would like would be an expansion with modding capacities and recreating modding communities as previous iterations of Civ, but with new techs like Steam workshop. Portal 2 for example is still alive so many years thanks to that.