What are the Hallmarks of Civilization?

Guandao

Rajah of Minyue, Hlai and Langkasuka
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I had an interesting discussion about whether Australian Aboriginals should be in Civ6. The reasoning of a fellow Civfanatic was that they lacked the traits or hallmarks of a Civilization. These included urbanization, and craft specialization.

I would like to know what you guys consider the hallmarks of a Civilization. And whether peoples like the Aboriginals, indigenous Siberians, Khoisans, and Papuans qualify.
 
Well, I think it is important to differentiate between civilization in its academic sense and civilization in its game sense (Civilization).
Civilization is entirely about alt history, it is literally on the box. If I can have Pharaonic Egyptians and Gilgamesh launching ICBMs at America while the Aztecs are launching a spaceship, I think the discussion over whether the Aboriginals had an urban culture is sort of moot. It might be difficult to get city names given their lack of established cities, but I don't see why that need be a stumbling block.
 
I've just started reading "Egypt, Greece, and Rome: Civilizations of the Ancient Mediterranean" by Charles Freeman (so far, highly recommended) which, despite its title, starts with the earliest Mesopotamian Civilizations. He himself ponders on what that term means and how it escapes strict definition. He begins by talking about what culture is, and extends this to civilization. To quote:

... Crucial to the notion of 'civilization' is political and cultural stability and this normally means a state, a defined territory over which a king, a religious rules, or some other form of government claims control. From earliest times civilization and city life have appeared to be inseparable although what sustains urban living varies...

He then goes on to describe how civilization leads to specialised labour (crafts, trade, priests, etc...). But what I find interesting about his definition is that it doesn't require those things, rather, they natural happen once you have civilization.

So, according to him, you need some cultural and some form of authority that persists in time over more than one generation. I do not know if the Aboriginals qualify in this.


In terms of whether they would make a good civ in civilization, that is a completely different question. I think not if only because it would be hard to think of uniques for them that go beyond the very very start of the tech tree. And there are an abundance of other ancient civs that are more interesting to the average player and almost universally considered more historically worthy (whatever that means).

Could you list some of these interesting ancient civs?

The Aboriginals only really started to interact with outsiders in the late 1700s. Who knows how their material culture have changed in the 40,000 years they've lived in that continent.
I'm annoyed that the Jaguar and Eagle Warriors of the Aztecs are Ancient Era units, since they date to the 1400s, and interacted with the Conquistadors, who are in a later era.
 
Well any of the Mesopatamian ones for a start. Sumer, Babylon, Assyria, Hittites (are they in any civ?) and Persia are probably the most important. Other ancient civs include Egypt and - if you extend things to the classical age then you should add Greece, Rome, Carthage and the Celts. This is before we even consider leaving the Mediterranean.



That's part of the point though. How can you make a civ based on 40,000 years of history and culture that we know very little about?

As for where Civs should go on the tech tree, I've always thought that it should depend on technological progress rather than calendar date. The whole point of Civ is what if, "What if Aztec culture had started developing at the same time as the Egyptian?"

Sumeria, Persia, Egypt, Greece, and Rome are already Civs in Civ6. Hittites have been in Civ3. The rest have appeared in Civ5 and its expansions, and are surely returning to Civ6. Firaxis decided to put Australia in Civ6, with many decrying its inclusion due to similarities with other former British colonies and for its relatively short span of history.

I wouldn't say we know little about Aboriginal histories and cultures. Do we know everything about the 40,000 years of history for England, America, etc? I would go about designing an Aboriginal Civ like they do with Amerindians Civ. Research archeology, ethnographic/anthropological accounts, written sources of encounters with them, etc.
 
And, sure, you could design an Aboriginal civ. The question you asked is "should we" My opinion is no, for the reasons I gave AND because they don't qualify as a civilization according to the definition above. That other questionable civs have been added hardly seems relevant.
Augustus Caesar is an immortal demigod commanding machine gunners and tanks. I think we left academic understandings of "civilization" long ago. If we are able to "what if" Romans with Machine Guns, creating a "what if" Aboriginals developed urban society is a pretty small leap of faith.

Still think Firaxis should add the Goths as a civilization.
 
I'm annoyed that the Jaguar and Eagle Warriors of the Aztecs are Ancient Era units, since they date to the 1400s, and interacted with the Conquistadors, who are in a later era.

As Olleus has already said, that's rather the point - units should be tied roughly to technological eras to fit in with the what-if fantasy of the games. It is already quite possible for a scenario in-game where a relatively advanced Spanish civ sends its caravels over the ocean to find an Aztec civ with Eagle Warriors still running around. It is also quite possible that they arrive to find smoking factories in an already-industrialised Tenochtitlan. That's what civ is about.

Besides to give Aztecs club-wielding soldiers in the Renaissance seems like rather an unfair disadvantage, or else you have to ahistorically overpower those units to make them competitive in the later era. I rather felt that about Civ V's rather patronising Zulu Impi and their bonus against gunpowder units. It would've been better to make them a Warrior or Spearman replacement in the early game.

As for the Australian Aborigines it would be quite interesting to see them make the cut - I'm in favour of widening the geographic and cultural options - Civ is after all a game of what-ifs.
 
Well, making an Australian Aboriginals civ would be as bad as lumping Aztecs and Mayans together, or Sumerians and Babylonians, or Apache and Lakota.

But it would be a change from reinforcing ideas that civilizations are something more than a society distinct from another, and that they require urbanisation or central authority, which are denote the determinism and eurocentrism underlying the whole concept.
 
As Olleus has already said, that's rather the point - units should be tied roughly to technological eras to fit in with the what-if fantasy of the games. It is already quite possible for a scenario in-game where a relatively advanced Spanish civ sends its caravels over the ocean to find an Aztec civ with Eagle Warriors still running around. It is also quite possible that they arrive to find smoking factories in an already-industrialised Tenochtitlan. That's what civ is about.

Besides to give Aztecs club-wielding soldiers in the Renaissance seems like rather an unfair disadvantage, or else you have to ahistorically overpower those units to make them competitive in the later era. I rather felt that about Civ V's rather patronising Zulu Impi and their bonus against gunpowder units. It would've been better to make them a Warrior or Spearman replacement in the early game.

As for the Australian Aborigines it would be quite interesting to see them make the cut - I'm in favour of widening the geographic and cultural options - Civ is after all a game of what-ifs.

I wouldn't necessarily consider the Aztec weapon a club. It's a club with obsidian blades, very sharp. The Aztec vs Spanish were more evenly matched than commonly thought, due to the incompetence of the Spanish firearms at the time. Since goes for the Inca vs Spanish and the Algonquians vs British. Disease was a big factor in the conquest of Amerindians.
Impi were a Pikeman replacement if I remember correctly.
 
Writing, except the Incas.
Domestication, except for the Maya.
Agriculture, except for the Mongols.
Urbanism, except for the Irish.
Statehood, except for the Norse.
 
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But it would be a change from reinforcing ideas that civilizations are something more than a society distinct from another, and that they require urbanisation or central authority, which are denote the determinism and eurocentrism underlying the whole concept.

Eurocentrism? Why not indiacentrism? Or sinocentrism? Or mayacentrism? Urbanization and central authority has appeared in civilizations around the world. Even the "nomad civilizations", like the mongols, had their cities, or their regular markets, or their ceremonial centers/capitals. In two words: places and institutions through which regular exchanges between the individual members of the civilization happened. That is a requirement of civilization, the cement that binds together a people into a mutually intelligible experience of life, a culture, a civilization. They need not be big urban centers, throughout most history only a small portion of the population lived in "cities" and most of those those were the size of our villages of today. But having some of these "urban centers" were a requirement, they supplied the place. The institutions have also assumed many forms, but they all played the role of "central authority", enforcing commonly accepted rules of interaction without which no civilization could endure (and this need not be a polity: the greeks were notoriously split politically but they had their unifying places and institutions).

I'd risk defining a civilization as an enduring set of rules of life used and accepted and enforced among a human population. Could the australian aboriginals be called a civilization? I don't know much about their history, but I suspect that answer is yes, if they managed to have an enduring culture over a long timespan.
They do pose a problem for my attempt to define civilization: did they had places to gather and transmit, and maintain their culture? I'm guessing they did, otherwise they should have diverged and split... Or perhaps they did split and the present notion of "australian aboriginal" is a catch-all for many different groups? I dunno the specifics of Australia's history.
 
Language is needed for civilization, and after some point writing is required as well; even in Plato's time (and before) they had clay tablets to keep notes. Without those there would be no works by Aristotle left, given it is likely we only have notes from his lectures anyway.

Math, architecture, philosophy, art helps too, unless you live in the barbaricum continuum, as most do :thumbsup:
 
Civilization is a European construct that evolves out of the almost universal Our People vs Barbarians Beyond, developed to justify an alleged superiority of the European over every other.

It does not evolve of common features of other alleged civilizationd, but of the particular ones to Europe, that is why we are having this conversation right now.
 
Yes. Afterall druids=mathematicians. No need to pretend there is any cultural difference or scale. Human sacrifice and human flesh eating is also culture, as is lack of laws, absence of schools or any other decadent development of people who think too much.
 
Civilization is a European construct that evolves out of the almost universal Our People vs Barbarians Beyond, developed to justify an alleged superiority of the European over every other.

It does not evolve of common features of other alleged civilizationd, but of the particular ones to Europe, that is why we are having this conversation right now.

So Europe invented the "our people vs barbarians" thing? Civilizations in Sumeria, Egypt, China, Japan, The Aztecs, India, and so on that left written records with similar sentiments must not have existed until europeans created them.

Really, I hope you are joking. Or, if I misunderstood you and you mean that "our people vs barbarians" is almost universal but "civilization" is european, explain the chinese and the japanese, well documented as having similar concepts. And I could point out others in India, etc, but I only need one counter-example.
 
The difference between the European concept of civilisation and other concepts of civilisation is that the European concept purports to be a universal category. Most cultures have a sliding scale of familiar-to-strange, and that often maps to a scale of superior-to-inferior. Most cultures, historically, have been happy to leave it at that: Rome is the most Roman, ergo, the best. China is the most Chinese, ergo, natural rulers of the whole Earth. Mongolia is the most Mongolia, so your stuff is now my stuff. Modern Europeans are no different in adopting that particular strain of arrogance.

What changes is, Europeans start framing this as a neutral, scientific principle. It's not that Europeans are definitionally more civilised, but that Europeans just so happen to be the most civilised. It naturally follows that civilisation is not a uniquely European achievement, so we can start placing other cultures on a scale from more to less civilised, and while our definitions invariably end up defining "civilisation" in terms of cultural proximity to eighteenth century Europe, we frame things such that this is just a question of historical happenstance rather than collective narcissism. Even when weirdo race theorists started to argue Europeans are the only people physically capable of developing higher civilisation, they still attempt to root their argument in material science: the superiority of European civilisation is still justified in reference to something outside of and prior to European civilisation as such.

All of which, ironically, comes out of the distinctly European tradition of self-criticism, because the self-justifying loop propounded by the Greeks, Chinese or even Medieval Europeans (for whom "Christendom" was the border between worthy and unworthy cultures) was not robust enough for early modern Europeans, at least not the intellectual strata, to rationalise their imperialism. It wasn't enough that Europeans are better just because, or even that God favours the white man just because; a rational world and a rational God must operate according to clear and scientific principals. Unfortunately, for a lot of us, this tradition of self-criticism goes precisely one layer deeper, and then grinds to an absolute halt.

------

Part of our collective problem, I think, is that we've never really overcome the ancient tendency to think of "civilisation" in aesthetic and ethical terms, but we insist on defining it in political, economic or sociological terms. For the Chinese, the culture and values of the Han aristocracy were naturally the most aesthetically and ethically advanced, because they were taking that measure form inside a worldview structured by that culture. So the Romans, so the Babylonians, so even these self-critical Europeans. Because these sorts of aesthetic and ethical systems tend to require a fairly complex social and economic basis, we tend to up identifying the two over-directly, and making the mistake of thinking that because we live in a society of unprecedented social and economic complexity, we must also live in a society of unprecedented aesthetic and ethical sophistication.

Kyriakos inadvertently expresses this when he suggests that the relatively innocuous and really basically harmless practice of human cannibalism is enough to get one thrown out of the club of civilised peoples, even though this practice has absolutely no bearing on the social, economic or material complexity of a given society. It is "uncivilised" because it is deeply taboo within our culture, because it is so alien to our sense of elegant and righteous behaviour, because it appears to us so ugly and dishonourable, that we can't admit the possibility of them leading a life that is otherwise quite similar to our own. The fact that the cannibalism taboo, or at the very least the strength of this taboo in modern European culture, is basically an arbitrary one, is easily overlooked, because we've come to associated possession of our taboos directly with our ability to build roads and sewers and space shuttles.

Even much of our revaluation of "primitive" peoples seems similarly rooted in aesthetic and ethical concerns. Artwork and craftsmanship that was evidence of cultural inferiority to nineteenth century chauvinists have become highly regarded in a culture which places a high value on simplicity, authenticity and practicality. Egalitarian social structures and a wariness of authority have become admirable to a culture which is becoming extremely sensitive to status-differentiation. It's often not so much that people have come to appreciated that the lifestyle of the Maori or the Navajo or the Inuit are appropriate and human responses to a particular historical and geographical context, but that their aesthetic and ethical systems, or at least the simplistic interpretation we receive through popular culture, resonates more highly with the progressively minded than the gaudy tastes and brutal hierarchies of their own immediate civilisational procurers.
 
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Thank you.
 
If you bothered reading, perhaps you'd realise we've been discussing this all along.

Now think and write something that makes sense.

Moderator Action: Please remember to address the post and not the poster. Please also bear in mind the following quote from the rules: In short, be civil, polite and discuss the topic. If you disagree with someone's opinion, you are free to state why you disagree with it, but you must be polite in doing so. ~ Arakhor
 
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The difference between the European concept of civilisation and other concepts of civilisation is that the European concept purports to be a universal category. Most cultures have a sliding scale of familiar-to-strange, and that often maps to a scale of superior-to-inferior. Most cultures, historically, have been happy to leave it at that: Rome is the most Roman, ergo, the best. China is the most Chinese, ergo, natural rulers of the whole Earth. Mongolia is the most Mongolia, so your stuff is now my stuff. Modern Europeans are no different in adopting that particular strain of arrogance.

What changes is, Europeans start framing this as a neutral, scientific principle. It's not that Europeans are definitionally more civilised, but that Europeans just so happen to be the most civilised. It naturally follows that civilisation is not a uniquely European achievement, so we can start placing other cultures on a scale from more to less civilised, and while our definitions invariably end up defining "civilisation" in terms of cultural proximity to eighteenth century Europe, we frame things such that this is just a question of historical happenstance rather than collective narcissism. Even when weirdo race theorists started to argue Europeans are the only people physically capable of developing higher civilisation, they still attempt to root their argument in material science: the superiority of European civilisation is still justified in reference to something outside of and prior to European civilisation as such.

All of which, ironically, comes out of the distinctly European tradition of self-criticism, because the self-justifying loop propounded by the Greeks, Chinese or even Medieval Europeans (for whom "Christendom" was the border between worthy and unworthy cultures) was not robust enough for early modern Europeans, at least not the intellectual strata, to rationalise their imperialism. It wasn't enough that Europeans are better just because, or even that God favours the white man just because; a rational world and a rational God must operate according to clear and scientific principals. Unfortunately, for a lot of us, this tradition of self-criticism goes precisely one layer deeper, and then grinds to an absolute halt.

------

Part of our collective problem, I think, is that we've never really overcome the ancient tendency to think of "civilisation" in aesthetic and ethical terms, but we insist on defining it in political, economic or sociological terms. For the Chinese, the culture and values of the Han aristocracy were naturally the most aesthetically and ethically advanced, because they were taking that measure form inside a worldview structured by that culture. So the Romans, so the Babylonians, so even these self-critical Europeans. Because these sorts of aesthetic and ethical systems tend to require a fairly complex social and economic basis, we tend to up identifying the two over-directly, and making the mistake of thinking that because we live in a society of unprecedented social and economic complexity, we must also live in a society of unprecedented aesthetic and ethical sophistication.

Kyriakos inadvertently expresses this when he suggests that the relatively innocuous and really basically harmless practice of human cannibalism is enough to get one thrown out of the club of civilised peoples, even though this practice has absolutely no bearing on the social, economic or material complexity of a given society. It is "uncivilised" because it is deeply taboo within our culture, because it is so alien to our sense of elegant and righteous behaviour, because it appears to us so ugly and dishonourable, that we can't admit the possibility of them leading a life that is otherwise quite similar to our own. The fact that the cannibalism taboo, or at the very least the strength of this taboo in modern European culture, is basically an arbitrary one, is easily overlooked, because we've come to associated possession of our taboos directly with our ability to build roads and sewers and space shuttles.

Even much of our revaluation of "primitive" peoples seems similarly rooted in aesthetic and ethical concerns. Artwork and craftsmanship that was evidence of cultural inferiority to nineteenth century chauvinists have become highly regarded in a culture which places a high value on simplicity, authenticity and practicality. Egalitarian social structures and a wariness of authority have become admirable to a culture which is becoming extremely sensitive to status-differentiation. It's often not so much that people have come to appreciated that the lifestyle of the Maori or the Navajo or the Inuit are appropriate and human responses to a particular historical and geographical context, but that their aesthetic and ethical systems, or at least the simplistic interpretation we receive through popular culture, resonates more highly with the progressively minded than the gaudy tastes and brutal hierarchies of their own immediate civilisational procurers.

So this is how the "free folk" think?

^_^

And (a bit) more seriously: I am not of the view that complexity alone means civilization. There are a number of issues there, ranging from something mentioned in a quote (by Flaubert) that "there is nothing more complicated than a barbarian"*, to the fact that while our current society has more stuff and parameters (though not conscious or actively used by most) than previous ones, it does not follow it is more civilized.
In my view there is the overarching societal civilization of a place (when it does exist, anyway; it is not that clear by now if it exists in most places/countries, and probably doesn't in most of Europe or the US) and the personal "civilization" of individuals, which can tie to the overarching one, but has to always be unique anyway.
Eg, i am not regarding any civilized attitude i have as being a tie to the current state i live in. It can be tied to various book-readings and thoughts, which themselves inevitably - though again not directly- tie to societies of the past and some possible common thread of civilization. It is still quite notable a difference, when juxtaposed (for example) to someone who doesn't read anything and has no actual culture to present even if unmet with polemics or encouraged to share it.

*It is a phrase from one of his letters (which usually are vulgar :) ). I don't agree with it, yet i think he meant that if there is an absence of organization or rules in the self, it can mean one is in a far more chaotic state, which can signify complexity (it is arguable, though, if this causes complexity to surface, or increases it, or either at all).
 
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