What do you think are the greatest Civiliations in history?

What is the greatest civilization in history?

  • Arabia

    Votes: 15 7.5%
  • America

    Votes: 42 21.1%
  • Celtic (Scots, Irish, Gauls, etc.)

    Votes: 9 4.5%
  • China

    Votes: 71 35.7%
  • Egypt

    Votes: 24 12.1%
  • England/Britain

    Votes: 58 29.1%
  • Ethiopia

    Votes: 3 1.5%
  • France

    Votes: 21 10.6%
  • German (Germany, Viking, Netherlands, etc.)

    Votes: 34 17.1%
  • Hebrew

    Votes: 13 6.5%
  • Hellenic (Greece, Ptolemies, etc.)

    Votes: 64 32.2%
  • Iberia (Spain, Portugal, etc.)

    Votes: 10 5.0%
  • Inca

    Votes: 5 2.5%
  • India

    Votes: 25 12.6%
  • Japan

    Votes: 8 4.0%
  • Mesoamerica (Aztecs, Mayans, etc.)

    Votes: 11 5.5%
  • Mesopotamia (Babylon, Sumer, etc.)

    Votes: 22 11.1%
  • Mongolia

    Votes: 13 6.5%
  • Persia

    Votes: 22 11.1%
  • Rome

    Votes: 101 50.8%
  • Russia

    Votes: 18 9.0%
  • SE Asia (Khmer, Vietnam, etc.)

    Votes: 2 1.0%
  • Turkey

    Votes: 9 4.5%
  • West Africa (Mali, Songhai, etc.)

    Votes: 5 2.5%
  • Other (Please specify)

    Votes: 10 5.0%

  • Total voters
    199
@arronax

Portugal, the only nation that did not have ships?!!??! Then how did we discover half the world? Portugal had one of the largest navies at the time in fact, the so called "Spanish" armada was actually half spanish the other half of the armada was Portuguese.

And yes the USA is a cultural power because nowadays, all our movies, music, and media comes from the US.

I agree with you that the USA does not have arcitectual achievments, though.

Im not saying Portuguese Naval expeditions were stupid or useless, but if Portugal were say not to exist, some other nation would do it sooner or later. Most likely by Spain, Netherlands or England. Its like saying we dont really need Alexander Graham Bell because there was 3 other people to invent the telephone, Antonio Meucci, Johann Philipp Reis and Elisha Gray.

To me there is no such thing as American Culture. Are you telling me that Babel, Dreamgirls and Elvis is American Culture?

Skyscrapers are a big whoop, there are all over the planet.
 
Im not saying Portuguese Naval expeditions were stupid or useless, but if Portugal were say not to exist, some other nation would do it sooner or later. Most likely by Spain, Netherlands or England. Its like saying we dont really need Alexander Graham Bell because there was 3 other people to invent the telephone, Antonio Meucci, Johann Philipp Reis and Elisha Gray.

To me there is no such thing as American Culture. Are you telling me that Babel, Dreamgirls and Elvis is American Culture?

Skyscrapers are a big whoop, there are all over the planet.

:rolleyes: That's like saying that we don't need the British because te Chinese would of started the industrial revolution sooner or later.

It basically defeats the purpose of this whole topic, because then people could say "well, that doesen't matter because sooner or later another civilization would do that."
 
:rolleyes: That's like saying that we don't need the British because te Chinese would of started the industrial revolution sooner or later.

It basically defeats the purpose of this whole topic, because then people could say "well, that doesen't matter because sooner or later another civilization would do that."

Yes and no. Yes what you say is true.

But! The British was the country that kick started the Industrial Revolution. Without the British, the Industrail Revolution would have been delayed for another 100-200 years. Unlike the explorations of the world which would have taken place a few decades, maybe years later.

One warning though, you seem like Thelastone36, a crazy Polish Nationlists, dont be like him and be a crazy Portuguese Nationlists.
 
You know, being 100% original or copying the Greeks 100% aren't the only possibilities...

Of course, of course. We are simply trying to point out that it shouldn't be all about Rome since a lot of their especially cultural achievements were borrowed from the Greeks. You cannot praise Roman culture and their impact in world history without acknowledging the Hellenistic influences.
 
Thats a very sad culture then.

Having a culture so insignificant that nobody knows or cares about it is sad. Being so envious of a culture that people do pay attention to that you actually have to convince yourself it doesn't exist is just woefully pathetic. :sad:

There's another reason that I value the amalgam nature of the US. It's hard to be insecure about foreign influence when you're so secure about what you already have.

Wrong, meet the Grandfather of all Skyscrapers,

Wrong, it's called that because of the iron frame that preceded the invention of the skyscraper, not because it's a skyscraper itself. Claiming that therefore whomever built it invented the skyscraper is like saying Benjamin Franklin invented the lightbulb. Once again, influence is used as a tool of revision, and once again, I'm not impressed.:D
 
those things were most likely not invented on their own, and were made by China.

gunpowder weapons and related weapon-types helped quicken the Mongol's invasions, for example.

the inventions made later by the Europeans would have never really been there had it been for the Chinese inventions, and if not, they came after. the Chinese invented a whole ton of modern things centuries before the Europeans, some of the things even a millenia earlier.
where would modern warfare be now, for example, without the invention of gunpowder?

though of course China isn't the world's overlord, i always have a feeling the importance of China, and India to a lesser extent, is always underestimated. the most influential they were in, i suppose, to the world now, is innovatively and economically.
So all those things I listed were probably made in China?! I'm absolutely certain that the steam engine, electricity, railways and the others were British inventions. You can disagree, but you'll be disagreeing with facts. You seem to focus quite a lot on gunpowder.
As I said, the Chinese didn't do much with gunpowder. The Chinese did not invent good cannons, small arms, or rifling. They didn't invent self-contained cartridges or machine guns. They didn't invent rocketry or any of the newer chemicals used as propellants in guns.
One item out of many, and didn't even invent its most important use!
I agree of course I'm too tired to make a long response to that other guys claim that china and india have had no influence.:rolleyes:

我很累。

I never said 'no influence'. I said much less influence because they never went anywhere. China and India have not sailed across the world and founded colonies or conquered strange and distant lands. Without passing any moral judgement on such actions, I think it's quite possible to say that having done so gives a country, and the ideas it spread, more influence.
China and India have important and old cultures, but this doesn't make them influential.
 
Having a culture so insignificant that nobody knows or cares about it is sad. Being so envious of a culture that people do pay attention to that you actually have to convince yourself it doesn't exist is just woefully pathetic. :sad:

There's another reason that I value the amalgam nature of the US. It's hard to be insecure about foreign influence when you're so secure about what you already have.



Wrong, it's called that because of the iron frame that preceded the invention of the skyscraper, not because it's a skyscraper itself. Claiming that therefore whomever built it invented the skyscraper is like saying Benjamin Franklin invented the lightbulb. Once again, influence is used as a tool of revision, and once again, I'm not impressed.:D

Say what you want, to me America real definite culture. If you are saying saying that I am jealous of American, you are sadly mistaken.

Wheter or not america invented skyscrapers, A bunch of metal, glass and concrete is not impressive. Sears look likes a bunch of box, Empire State building is nothing special. And they arent some great engineering feat or something
 
Say what you want, to me America real definite culture. If you are saying saying that I am jealous of American, you are sadly mistaken.

Wheter or not america invented skyscrapers, A bunch of metal, glass and concrete is not impressive. Sears look likes a bunch of box, Empire State building is nothing special. And they arent some great engineering feat or something

I'm going to have to agree with aronnax, a bunch of concete is not really an architectural achievement. However, people may view it as an achievement in the future. When the Eiffel Tower and the Partheon (think that was the name) were buillt they were thought to be wastes of money and ugly. Now people praise these constructions, so time does do alot. Therefore, It's hard to judge Americas Architecture for now.
 
To me there is no such thing as American Culture.
Say what you want, to me America real definite culture.

...Alright then. :confused:

If you are saying saying that I am jealous of American, you are sadly mistaken.

I hate my country, I hate my goverment, I hate its policies, I hate my Prime Minister, I hate my people, I hate the way the speak, I hate my "culture" and I want to move to London

...Well, I'd say an inferiority complex is definatly not of the question.

Wheter or not america invented skyscrapers, A bunch of metal, glass and concrete is not impressive.

lol You can say that about any construct, especially if you're trying to avoid a certain context.

And they arent some great engineering feat or something

Um, yes they are. You're going to have to get over the fact that America's doing alright for itself. By the way if American culture and "big bunches of metal and glass" are your turnoffs, you're really gonna love London. :lol:
 
1. Importance to History

Greece, first real form of civilisation in my opinion

2. Military Power/Influence

This has changed hands so many times its hard to compare, mongols probably had the largest majority of their time at their peak

3. Political Power/Influence

Rome had significant political power margin over others in its time

4. Cultural Power/Influence

British: most common language, english law, British traditions all over the world.

5. Scientific and Innovative Achievements

China and British in a tie, first the Chinese then the British sort of continued the good work.

6. Cultural Longetivity

Greek or Roman, roman pottery is found all over Europe and is constantly brought up, Greeks for inventing democracy and making philosophy a fine art.

7. Economical Power/Influence

The Arabs has significant power over eastern trading routes to the extent that the european powers sent loads of ships looking for asia the other way.

8. Architectural Achievements

Rome: central heating etc.

9. Capability to Destroy

Noone has ever had real power to destroy until the invention of nuclear weapons which many have now so no single nation has the overall power to destroy.

10. Humanity
No one nation, the cooperative efforts of nations have done the best for "humanity"

lol You can say that about any construct, especially if you're trying to avoid a certain context.

So the idea of how to make a skyscraper was invented, the Americans built the first one and now you are claiming credit for the whole concept of skyscrapers? Despite not having the most impressive ones in the world?

By the way if American culture and "big bunches of metal and glass" are your turnoffs, you're really gonna love London.

As London has lots of metal and glass in big bunch form I guess that was some sort of poor joke. Though you'd be deluded to think that London has large amounts of American culture in it. The city outdates the country by many centuries even post-fire.
 
So the idea of how to make a skyscraper was invented, the Americans built the first one and now you are claiming credit for the whole concept of skyscrapers?

No the concept of the skyscraper wasn't invented, that's the whole point.

Despite not having the most impressive ones in the world?

Once again subjective opinion is supposed to shatter my ego somehow. Not to mention that the rather objective fact that we have both the world's tallest building and structure (by one of many definitions at least see the bottom of the page: http://www.allaboutskyscrapers.com/tallest_building.htm

As London has lots of metal and glass in big bunch form I guess that was some sort of poor joke. Though you'd be deluded to think that London has large amounts of American culture in it. The city outdates the country by many centuries even post-fire.

I was saying that American and British contemporary culture ain't that far removed. If you mean to split hairs on that one, then I'm not the one who's deluded.
 
I agree that the fact you don't have the tallest skyscraper is irrelevant, (despite the fact that the link you provided gives a list of the tallest buildings that place the Americans 3rd. Skyscraper = Building. Not the biggest antennae.)

However you earlier claiming that American architecture being important despite only having what others have, and going by your idea of the Americans devising the skyscraper, then the Americans pioneered it and others greatly improved it.

This was an argument you used in another thread to increase the importance of Washington for improving existing ideas. You claimed this meant he was as, or if not more, important that it's discoverers. Which using the same argument would mean that the creators of Taipei 101 and the Petronas Towers are more important that the pioneers of skyscraper building.

No the concept of the skyscraper wasn't invented, that's the whole point.

My point was rather confused, I apologise, I meant the system for creating skyscrapers. I.e. The flax mill due to the cast iron framework used, if it wasn't for this pioneering technique the first skyscraper would have been created much later.

I was saying that American and British contemporary culture ain't that far removed. If you mean to split hairs on that one, then I'm not the one who's deluded.

For some areas that may be true. But for London, it most certainly isn't.

supposed to shatter my ego somehow

For some reason I doubt that is possible.
 
I agree that the fact you don't have the tallest skyscraper is irrelevant, (despite the fact that the link you provided gives a list of the tallest buildings that place the Americans 3rd. Skyscraper = Building. Not the biggest antennae.)

I agree that the fact you think an antenna absolutely doesn't constitute part of a building is irrelevant and so is what you consider impressive.

However you earlier claiming that American architecture being important despite only having what others have, and going by your idea of the Americans devising the skyscraper, then the Americans pioneered it and others greatly improved it.

You still haven't elaborated on how all the United States is inferior in that aspect, but I'll try to imagine a wonderfully pretentious argument to that effect myself.

This was an argument you used in another thread to increase the importance of Washington for improving existing ideas. You claimed this meant he was as, or if not more, important that it's discoverers. Which using the same argument would mean that the creators of Taipei 101 and the Petronas Towers are more important that the pioneers of skyscraper building.

If you call the 101 substantially different from other contemporary buildings then yes. I wouldn't, though.

My point was rather confused, I apologise, I meant the system for creating skyscrapers. I.e. The flax mill due to the cast iron framework used, if it wasn't for this pioneering technique the first skyscraper would have been created much later.

That's correct, and no less can be said of those who actually devised it.

For some areas that may be true. But for London, it most certainly isn't.

Yes sir, prime minister.

For some reason I doubt that is possible.

Well, I find that being secure in one's own is the surest means of accepting others, you adorable little muffin, you.
 
...Alright then. :confused:

Sorry, thinking ahead of typing it should say, "America has no real definite culture"


...Well, I'd say an inferiority complex is definatly not of the question.



lol You can say that about any construct, especially if you're trying to avoid a certain context.

Okay let me put it this way, Skyscrapers to me arent beautiful works of art or engineering, they are as I said before, boxes stacked on boxes. They are everywhere, reducing its uqiuness. I mean there is only one Great Wall in the world but their are over 15000 skyscrapers and high rises in Hong Kong alone. Not very oringinal. Nor are they works of enginneering modern or ancient. As much as I dislike the Syndney Opera House, I say it is much better than the Sears Towers. Also, all the goodlooking skyscrapers are in Asia :).

Um, yes they are. You're going to have to get over the fact that America's doing alright for itself. By the way if American culture and "big bunches of metal and glass" are your turnoffs, you're really gonna love London. :lol:

America is doing alright for itself? The only reason why its economy hasnt crashed its because some countries arent so quick to change to Euro:lol:. I tell you America is so dependant on the world. You dont know how actually weak America is. Russia and China is enough to rip it to shreds.

Also how dare you say England is the same as America. Im not an englishmen but I feel so insulted.

ten Characters
 
Okay let me put it this way, Skyscrapers to me arent beautiful works of art or engineering, they are as I said before, boxes stacked on boxes. They are everywhere, reducing its uqiuness. I mean there is only one Great Wall in the world but their are over 15000 skyscrapers and high rises in Hong Kong alone. Not very oringinal.

Let me put it this way, there used to be none, then we made them, therefore, they were original. The fact that there are thousands all over the world, means that the invention was also very influencial. Skyscrapers in Hong Kong: 15000+. 4000 mile long stone walls anywhere else in the world: 0. Not very influencial.

Nor are they works of enginneering modern or ancient.

Again, yes they are.

As much as I dislike the Syndney Opera House,

I like the Sydney Opera House

I say it is much better than the Sears Towers.

I like the Sears Tower, too.

Also, all the goodlooking skyscrapers are in Asia

If I saw them I'd probably like them too, but knowing where they come from, I probably wouldn't be crushed by their significance.:cool:

America is doing alright for itself? The only reason why its economy hasnt crashed its because some countries arent so quick to change to Euro. I tell you America is so dependant on the world. You dont know how actually weak America is. Russia and China is enough to rip it to shreds.

:lol: I don't take anything away from Russia or China or Europe, which makes one of us a wishful thinker.

Also how dare you say England is the same as America. Im not an englishmen but I feel so insulted.

And yet you insult them by saying "all good-looking skyscrapers are in Asia." Well, if you think that London is an ugly mass of worthless, inferior labors it's good to let them all know that's how you feel now.
 
Regarding: 6. Cultural Longevity

I have read of three main contenders being put forward in this thread for this category; Egypt, Ethiopia and China. They are popular. Fair enough. But, at most, we could say that 5,000 years is longest continuous cultural stretch here, maybe a bit more, but that's still immaterial given the contender I'd like to offer up for this category.

Unless I've missed it, no one has actually mentioned one culture and civilisation which both pre-dates all those three by tens of thousands of years and which still continues to this day. Who? The Australian Aborigines. Weighing in at a heavy duty 40,000 years and counting. And that's just the conservative consensus. Some even say 50,000-70,000 years. Egypt, China, Ethiopia - where were you back then?

Yes, I can hear you now: "The Aborigines? Those naked, bat eating, spear chuckers? A civilisation?! Don't make me laugh!" But I would contend that such views, admittedly caricatured here for the sake of brevity, are symptomatic of the gaming mentality that far too often permeates such discussions as this thread inspires. And also of a somewhat biased anthropological outlook, influenced heavily by anthropology from the European Imperial period (characteristics of which China's has demonstrated also), a school limited to the realm of said gaming criteria and arguably part of a long established, xenophobic,self congratulatory view on what constitutes "a civilisation". See any 19th century or earlier European anthropological works for more on this, and my discussion of definitions of "civilisation" below.

Furthermore, the criteria that many would use to discount this civilisation and instead promote others, like China or England's, fail to account for the sustainability of a cultural entity. Such sustainability is what has allowed the Aboriginal culture to trounce the other contenders in this category, and will allow them to do so in the indefinite future. It also discredits the projected longevity of say Britain or China's culture, which are both dependent on unsustainable growth, construction, conflict and productivity. Yet further, and related, these criteria always seem to depend on "an other"; to conquer, to convert, to colonise, to construct higher and bigger than, to define oneself in opposition to. The Aboriginal Australian culture needs not walk down this "my cock is bigger than your cock" route to "greatness".

They have been practising the same culture for some 40,000 years, perhaps longer, and continue to do so today. In case you're wondering, it's their cave paintings that have been radio-carbon dated (a process often known as C-14), specifically the pigmentation of the paint, to give us a figure of 40,000 years. The most renowned was by Sue O'Connor at the Australian National University, conducted on buried pigment found at Carpenter's Gap, in the Windjana Gorge National Park. New techniques, such as optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) and accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS) have been used to confirm this date of O'Connor's. But there are also reams of indirect evidence pointing to earlier dating. Sure, you could say that cave paintings in southern France and northern Italy, which have been dated with similar techniques, go back as far as 35,000 years. But these are not examples of continuous cultural activity.

---

So much for the age of their culture, but are they really "a civilisation"?

Well, let's look into some definitions, see whether these are worthy, and then how the Aboriginal Australians measure up. "A civilisation" is often defined by its complexity of society; its detachment from the 'natural order' of the animal world; its settlement characteristics; its agricultural activity, providing surplus food, thereby allowing a division of labour; its advanced development of the arts; its ability to conduct trade; presence of written forms of communication and record making and so on.

These popular definitions of what constitutes "a civilisation" are pretty recent in the grand scheme of human history. They dovetail too conveniently for objectivity's sake into a modern, Anglo-Saxon defined, capitalist, productivity focused mentality. See for example the division of labour definition, which assumes and requires that one group of humans lord it over another in a master/slave, employer/employee, monarch/subject, priest/faithful, landowner/peasant relationship; be that under a feudal, dynastic, capitalist, oligarchic, theocratic, or any other such system. See also the complexity of society definition, which allows for and creates the same kind of exploitative relationships.

These definitions are biased in favour of the powerful. They are biased not in favour of human co-operation, but in favour of human domination. They are very much aligned to 'the law of the jungle' or 'natural order', which civilisation is supposed to, according to these definitions, detach humans from.

It is not surprising that they were largely coined during the Colonial and Imperial era, say 1500s to the present day, or, in the case of the Chinese, during their lengthy, Imperial Dynastic periods. They fail to account for other value systems that people have lived and organised themselves by for millenia. The 'infantrymen', if you like, for the assessment of a people fitting into such definitions were largely anthropologists, a field of study that became increasingly codified during more modern, Imperial times and has always been quite subjective. Their observations far too often (until just recently) measured people against capitalist or mercantile values, values which really are a small blip on the vast expanse of human activity.

And if these definitions are not recent, they are even more horrendously subjective, or simply ignorant, such as that of Herodotus' civilised / barbarian dichotomy, or those of the dynastic Chinese historians, which look through a similarly tinted lens. They, along with the definition of a civilisation requiring a written form of communication and record keeping, all lay the foundations for conquest, or further dominion of the 'civilised' over the 'barbaric', or the 'advanced' over the 'backward'.

They were all used to enact the 'natural order' in human relations. They didn't get us away from the law of jungle at all. They were all used to justify mass murder (through war, conquest and oppression), to justify subjugation (under the guise of 'civilising' a people) and exploitation (under the same guise). Isn't it hard to equate these three activities with their own related, popular notions of what it means to be "civilised" and above such animalistic "barbarity"? Don't these definitions therefore contain some serious inward contradictions?

---

So which objective, non-contradictory and value free definitions of "civilisation" might we be happy with?

Well, they are, of course, hard to come by. In asking for a domination free definition, for example, we are of course placing a value of our own into the mix. At least we're being consistent in thought and action by detaching mankind from the natural order however. In this way, and by degrees, some definitions are more generally acceptable than others.

So, if we accept that society must be predicated upon human co-operation, and not merely domination as seen in 'the natural order', then "the settlement definition" would get the thumbs up. Check "the Abos" in for this then. They have had co-operative settlements for those tens of thousands of years mentioned above and there is no evidence, then or now, of domination, exploitative divisions of labour, nor hierarchy being a prerequisite for said settlements (as dogs, lions or other animals would enact).

The capacity to trade can be checked too upon these terms. The varying tribes of these peoples have been shown to trade a variety of handicrafts through all manner of archaeological finds. The mere presence and creation of such handicrafts as musical instruments, forms of jewellery, paintings and hides demonstrates the luxury of free time beyond merely eeking out a living, pointing out that agriculture isn't needed to "civilise" a people either.

The development of the arts can also be acceptable, for it requires no domination, conquest, bloodbaths or internal contradictions. Check them in here too then. We already know about their art, through painting, music, dance and story telling.

On this note, let's consider the Aboriginal "Dreamtime" here, for it elaborates on the spiritual and philosophical complexity of their culture and civilisation. In this cohesive and comprehensive belief system, or mythology as its sometimes described, we can see a philosophical approach to both time and consciousness. And not only human consciousness. We can see cosmological explanation and astronomical observation, through the resultant paintings, dances, poetry and stories. Those who have looked earnestly into these complimentary Dreamtime art forms have found that they bear out both astronomical observations of the night's sky and also physical mapping qualities of the surrounding landscape, making their's arguably the first ever maps that humans ever created. We can see a deeply symbolic Cosmogony (creation story) to equal that told by the Judeo-Christian or Hindu cultures also. These have all provided the Aboriginal Australians with meaning in their lives, and a meaning that requires no "an other". And, finally, we can see a sustainable way of life that does not destroy the environment that supports it, thereby ensuring that it may live on well into the indefinite future. Something that all the civilisations in the OP simply cannot lay claim to.

And all this tens of thousands of years before the cultures and civilisations of China, Egypt and Ethiopia began to stir. And counting, for none of those mighty barbaric "civilisations" have manage to eradicate them.
 
:rolleyes: That's like saying that we don't need the British because te Chinese would of started the industrial revolution sooner or later.

It basically defeats the purpose of this whole topic, because then people could say "well, that doesen't matter because sooner or later another civilization would do that."

This is typical, if i say the British are the best, th egreatest and are responsible for finding, discovering everything its all ok and im a genius, but if i say the truth that Portugal did use its courage and discovered the World, yes, Afrika, Indiasm Japan, China, Indonesia, Australia and America im a plain nationalist fanatic! that doesnt have a brain.

Its like in this forum, why do i have to write in english? beacuse USA owns everybody, not because english do.

As for the americans not having architectural achievements thats just plain stupid, it´s all they have! Hoover Damm, Golden Gate, Twin Towers, Cape Carneval NASA, Panama Canal, the entire Las Vegas city built in the middle of the desert, Maglevs platforms, hell their entire cities are architectural achivements, so read up and stop saying . .. .. .. ., China is only starting to look like USA.

As for Netherlands not having military?? How do you think they stole the portuguese and spanish colonies from us? By letters or coffe beans? Wake up. Portuguese and spanish fortresses werent like you see in the holllywood movies, eveybody drinking wine and with long mustaches, they were armed to the teeth beeing cpable of destroying armies 10 times their size in numbers.

You should start thinking and reading with your brain, instead of just letting the anglo-saxon media take over your opinions as its so usual in nowadays.

But the main launghing material is that Portugal didnt had any ships??!!!!

OMG, someone gimme a gun, Portugal produced between year 1500 and 1700 over 10,000 war ships called Nau´s, Galleons and Caravels, how do you think we dominated the sea trade between India, Africa and Brazil?? Using Seagulfs or mermaids? Man that staitment is not stupid its total ignorance and a serious lack of reading up.

Dude, the spanish Santa Maria, that Colombo used to discover Americas was a copy of a Portuguese caravel and Colombo first speaked to Portugal but with refused beacuse we already had discovered America! so why would we finance something we already knew?? Of course the spanish claimed otherwise like always.

Before Infante Dom Henrique and its Naval Academy in Sagres there werent even ships capable of sailing against the wind! We pratically invented Ocean Travel, so dont come claim we didnt had any ships, our entire history comes from the sea!

Hell, the so called Privatteer and Pirates were created by the Enlish and Netherlands beacuse they couldnt defeat the Portuguese and Spanish Navy by their own official Her Majesties Navy, they had to hire and send all the convictis to the ships to help the dirty work!
 
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