What do you think are the greatest Civiliations in history?

[jacktheknife]

Fine believe what you wish to believe, it seems the American nationalism mill is still on all engines. Do you still salute the flag in school?

Ahh, poo. Can't make a little passive defense or affirmative objectivity without being a goose-stepping nationalist to everyone. Constantly asserting the inferiority of other countries, now that says nationalism to me. Know anyone around here like that?

Rambuchan: I dunno, that kind of definition of cultural longevity kind of rewards insularity. I see the ability of components of ones culture to survive constant cross-influence as a merit to it.

 

[Brighteye]

And yet you insult them by saying "all good-looking skyscrapers are in Asia." Well, if you think that London is an ugly mass of worthless, inferior labors it's good to let them all know that's how you feel now.

I think you're confusing things here. He was pointing out that the English and American cultures are different, and that it's insulting for most people in the world to be likened to American culture.
He may well think that London is an ugly, soulless blight on the map. It doesn't really matter. Trying to rile him by making such a point isn't much of an argument; it's avoiding real argument.

Which may be why you've been accused of being a blinkered nationalist.

 

[StarWorms]

Why isn't america on there? We have the best government in the world Today, doesn't that count for something?

Funniest thing I've read in ages

 

[jacktheknife]

I think you're confusing things here. He was pointing out that the English and American cultures are different, and that it's insulting for most people in the world to be likened to American culture.

My point exactly about the tendency of rewarding insularity. I've made the point about how I value the number of influences on American culture. Intercourse leads to growth. Making sacrosanct the virgin singularity of one's culture implies to me either compensation for one's lack of growth or a fear of cultural domination. Whatever your motivation is, Britain isn't either of those. They've assimilated a great deal of American culture into their own in the past century, and have been more culturally relevant for it, at times more so then the US.

He may well think that London is an ugly, soulless blight on the map. It doesn't really matter. Trying to rile him by making such a point isn't much of an argument; it's avoiding real argument.

Well, I thought that the point of his double-standard was well made.

Which may be why you've been accused of being a blinkered nationalist.

Oh, I can think of plenty of reasons why people cry nationalist at Americans. Considering I'm the only one being relativity unconditional in regards to country in this argument, you'll pardon me if I don't start self-medicating over it.

 

[Plotinus]

To me there is no such thing as American Culture. Are you telling me that Babel, Dreamgirls and Elvis is American Culture?

This is ludicrous. The greatest and most important innovations in music of the twentieth century - jazz, blues, and rock and roll - were all American inventions. Muddy Waters, Robert Johnson, Louis Armstrong, Louis Jordan, and all the rest were American. That's the really valuable part of American culture.

And yet you insult them by saying "all good-looking skyscrapers are in Asia." Well, if you think that London is an ugly mass of worthless, inferior labors it's good to let them all know that's how you feel now.

For heaven's sake, have you ever been to London? There are hardly any skyscrapers there. There are perhaps two in the City and half a dozen in Canary Wharf (which is on the outskirts). Most of the fairly tallish buildings in London are blocks of flats, away from the centre, and pretty skunky ones at that - and the Romans invented those, not the Americans. In fact, as far as I know, most European cities don't have skyscrapers, at least not many. They are really an American and Asian thing. London is spread out, low, and yes, appallingly ugly, at least in my opinion. Personally I much prefer the tall shiny buildings of American and Asian cities.

 

[kryszcztov]

I voted : Hellenistic, Mesopotamia, China.

Too bad for Rome, I really think they miss something : personality. Probably a good reason why they were so powerful for such a long time though.

And please, no kneeling before Egypt : I think their influence is rather slim, they were more of an "oasis civ" (ie. isolated, despite their contacts with other civs in their time).

Those two are the runner-ups though.

Mesopotamia : first cradle of civilization, be it Jericho or Sumer. Nuff said.

China : rather isolated too, but with such a massive population, and such a historical time frame.

Hellenistic : probably biaised, but anyway they were oh so important.

 

[dh_epic]

The isolation of Egypt from history might not be scientific. The same way that the isolation of Hebrew civilization might not be scientific. Back in the early 1800s, the Indo-Aryans got a lot of attention for influencing Europe... and other roles were deliberately downplayed.

Historians are still trying to understand the significance of this bias.

 

[cybrxkhan]

^
Egypt used to be "big" in the early days of archaeology. then they made it seem "smaller". but now they're starting to rethink that.

in my opinion, Egypt has more of an influence on western culture then many believe. not 100% influence, but more then people think now.

 

[Mirc]

For heaven's sake, have you ever been to London? There are hardly any skyscrapers there. There are perhaps two in the City and half a dozen in Canary Wharf (which is on the outskirts). Most of the fairly tallish buildings in London are blocks of flats, away from the centre, and pretty skunky ones at that - and the Romans invented those, not the Americans. In fact, as far as I know, most European cities don't have skyscrapers, at least not many.

Spoiler :

And if you think skyscrapers are only Asian and American... look at some more UK cities...

Liverpool, one (!) of the many (!) projects:

Another:

Another:

Another:

And I hate the image limit.

 

[Mirc]

^ So since there's a limit, I have to make another post:

Spoiler :

Frankfurt:

(I've been in this skyscraper on the left BTW, I have photos from there)

 

[cybrxkhan]

^

things change


are you sure thats london? what if thats a computer graphic or some other city?

 

[Mirc]

^ Well, as I said, some of them (the Liverpool ones, for example) are projects (for 2012, I think). But I can assure you Frankfurt is just like that. I have pictures of myself on top of the skyscrapers.

 

[Yui108]

It's impossible to say we to say what single country dominated history the most, because they all did things differently. This board can be anti-western, or more specifically anti-U.S. at times, and I quess I don't understand what makes United States the evil empire. Iraq is a quagmire, but the public supported it because we had been told it was to dispose a tyrannic dictator(true) and destroy weapons of mass destruction that threaten the U.S. (false).

Of course their are stories of brutality, but every country in the world has these and most worse. The U.S. public is against the war and other than that I believe the United States has been the worlds leading country for past 60 years. But of course our "turn" on top is ending, and it will be China, India(my pick), the E.U., or a combination of many to create the next world power. Or perhaps there will never be a world power again...

 

[Plotinus]

Most of the buildings in Mirc's pictures don't exist! At least the British ones. As I said before, London has roughly two skyscrapers in the City and half a dozen at Canary Wharf, and that's it. Those pictures have got imaginary buildings added to them - maybe that's what London and Liverpool will look like in fifty years, but certainly not now.

German cities may well have skyscrapers - hadn't thought of that. But I can certainly say that British ones do not, as a rule (with the odd exception here and there). I don't believe that French ones do either.

 

[Steph]

German cities may well have skyscrapers - hadn't thought of that. But I can certainly say that British ones do not, as a rule (with the odd exception here and there). I don't believe that French ones do either.

French ones do, but not in the city centers, more in "new cities" such as La Défense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Défense

The tallest building there is only 187m high.

The tallest building in Paris are the Eiffel Tower (324m high), and the Tour Montparnasse.

There's a project at La Défense for a 318m high building, that should be the tallest in Europe when completed

 

[holy king]

most influential for europe i'd have to say greece, rome, arabia, and anglo-american culture...

 

[kryszcztov]

The isolation of Egypt from history might not be scientific. The same way that the isolation of Hebrew civilization might not be scientific. Back in the early 1800s, the Indo-Aryans got a lot of attention for influencing Europe... and other roles were deliberately downplayed.

Historians are still trying to understand the significance of this bias.

I have yet to hear about the influence from the great Egyptian philosophers, or find evidence of the Egyptian religion in today's world. Or hear about how the great composers of the last centuries got inspired by music from Ancient Egypt, or see Egyptian trace in some of the most spread languages... That's just really what I meant. I might be wrong. But then linky please. At least for the West I think there is no doubt about it. You may say that people have purposedly turned back to Greco-Roman roots for a few centuries ; well sure, and that's how we're now heavily influenced by those 2 civs. You will argue that Ancient Egypt had great mathematicians and passed many discoveries to Greece and all ; sure, but mathematics (and to some extent, physics and other funny playgrounds) hardly are relevant of some sort of "culture". To put it simply, PI has the same value everywhere.

Oh, and the Jew culture has influenced today's world much, much more than Egypt ever will. Just one word is enough : "Jesus". The remarkable thing about the Jews is their relative minor status on the international scene throughout the centuries, combined with their great influence on the rest of the world.

^
Egypt used to be "big" in the early days of archaeology. then they made it seem "smaller". but now they're starting to rethink that.

That was not my point if you were answering to my post. Egypt can be super big in terms of archaelogy and people's genuine interest. That's hardly a sign of influence, except if we all suddenly behave like Ancient Egyptians.

in my opinion, Egypt has more of an influence on western culture then many believe. not 100% influence, but more then people think now.

I'm Socrates and I'm waiting for you.


About the district of La Défense, near Paris : it's said to be the greatest place for skyscrappers in Europe, in terms of working people or money (dunno). I work there !

 

[RE Lee]

I voted for the Germans (more Vikings, but some German influence on the vote) because they gave us in the English speaking counties as well as much of the rest of the world their legal system and our modern individulaism.

 

[Mirc]

I voted for the Germans (more Vikings, but some German influence on the vote) because they gave us in the English speaking counties as well as much of the rest of the world their legal system and our modern individulaism.

You know... Romans have had a huge influence in the legal system, much more than the Germans or Vikings I'd say...

 

[RE Lee]

You know... Romans have had a huge influence in the legal system, much more than the Germans or Vikings I'd say...

English common law was set up during Viking reign and is also used in some form in other cultures. Rome didn't have juries or individualism, though I don't know much else about the roman legal system.