What exactly is so wrong with communism?

As opposed in Capitalism, where the rich owns you and you own very little.

No - you make what you can. If we go back to my example of a fairly unique 'proper' capitalist system, there's no exploitation - someone needs to do work that makes nothing, for example paying to keep the mine working and managing the thing, and so he takes what the people using the mine make since it is, after all, his mine
 
capitalism may be unfair and sometimes dangerous but it is completely natural and works with human nature unlike communism which works against human nature and tries to control it

It is human nature to submit to outside authority?

Given all the rebellions, revolutions, etc. throughout history, and the natural tendency of people to reject outside control, detest being coerced, etc. I must strongly disagree.

Edit: As for the Spanish cities, they were actually anarchist, and the anarchist experience was destroyed not by Franco's fascists, but rather by communists following Moscow.

Bolsheviks, not communists. The Spanish anarchists tended to lean towards collectivism (at least during the short time of the Revolution), but they were far closer to proper communism than the authoritarians of the Comintern.

No - you make what you can. If we go back to my example of a fairly unique 'proper' capitalist system, there's no exploitation - someone needs to do work that makes nothing, for example paying to keep the mine working and managing the thing, and so he takes what the people using the mine make since it is, after all, his mine

Money does not work the mine, workmen and women do.

Capital does not manage the mine, workmen and women do (although, under a capitalist system, these individuals are separate from the ones actually working in the mines; this inefficiency would be corrected in socialism).

Capitalists themselves do absolutely nothing. They put up capital, yea, but where did they get that capital in the first place? They certainly did not create it; it was, again, working people who invented uses for the mineral, who found the mineral deposits, and who dug the mine.

I like our system because communism says that when there are two men in a mine, one of whom can shift fifty pounds of coal and one who can shift ten, both are somehow entitled to 30 - that doesn't make sense. You get what you can get, that's how it should work.

What if each person is only able to use five pounds? Anything more than that is superfluous; it is irrelevant if one is able to generate more than the other, when both are generating more than they need.

In capitalism, each working person works to produce far more value than he/she uses, as this is the source of the capitalist's profit; unpaid labor.

What shouldn't happen is that people who are good at what they do get their produce taken from them to pay for people who are lazy.

Kropotkin made the interesting argument that virtually all "laziness" is a consequence of capitalism (which you might read from him, as I do not recall the specifics); that under communism very few cases of legitimate "laziness" would exist, and these few cases would be much too trivial to affect the overall economic prosperity of the commune (and, regardless, these cases could, if necessary, be dealt with by expulsion of the troublesome individual from the commune).

Is this correct? So everyone owns everything - that sounds like nobody owns anything to me

Correct, in the sense of a commune. No one owns the factories, houses, and fields; they are all free to all to use (though of course one has control over his/her own home, such that people cannot just come in at 2 o'clock in the morning and disrupt your sleep or appropriate your microwave). However, as communism is anti-authoritarian, if a person outside the commune wishes to have personal control over his plot of land and his home, we will not interfere with him, so long as he does not make use of wage labor.
 
It is human nature to submit to outside authority?

Given all the rebellions, revolutions, etc. throughout history, and the natural tendency of people to reject outside control, detest being coerced, etc. I must strongly disagree.

Communism requires a lot more submitting to authourity.

Money does not work the mine, workmen and women do.

Capital does not manage the mine, workmen and women do (although, under a capitalist system, these individuals are separate from the ones actually working in the mines; this inefficiency would be corrected in socialism).

Capitalists themselves do absolutely nothing. They put up capital, yea, but where did they get that capital in the first place? They certainly did not create it; it was, again, working people who invented uses for the mineral, who found the mineral deposits, and who dug the mine.

The so-called capitalist doesn't need to do anything, because he is just selling what he has.

What if each person is only able to use five pounds? Anything more than that is superfluous; it is irrelevant if one is able to generate more than the other, when both are generating more than they need.

They save it up for the winter? ;)

In capitalism, each working person works to produce far more value than he/she uses, as this is the source of the capitalist's profit; unpaid labor.

That doesn't work. The two methods of capitalism are pay by tithe, which I have justified above, and pay by time in which the boss pays you per hour and keeps everything you make, which invoves no unpaid labour.

Kropotkin made the interesting argument that virtually all "laziness" is a consequence of capitalism (which you might read from him, as I do not recall the specifics); that under communism very few cases of legitimate "laziness" would exist, and these few cases would be much too trivial to affect the overall economic prosperity of the commune (and, regardless, these cases could, if necessary, be dealt with by expulsion of the troublesome individual from the commune).

Are we talking about a little village in Ireland, or a country like the USSR? Anyway, people are always lazy regardless of the political system.
 
Why do people still ask this question? Really

screw communism I like money

there's your answer
 
The sad thing is that folks in this thread are arguing as if the labor theory of value is accurate and realistic. It is also argued that the only true production is that of the tangible.

Both statements are wholly wrong

The labor theory of value is discredited
Ideas are worth something.

Thus, Marxist thought is based in a fantasy world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value#Exploitation
 
and as if this thread hadnt contained enough crazy already, an "economist" has to step in and crap out his ridiculous two cents.

i love it.
 
So this guy had his ability to make a living independently destroyed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexey_Pajitnov

Yes. From the article:

Pajitnov himself made almost no money out of it, because due to the nature of Communism and the Soviet system, everything he made was owned by the community.

So yes, he was deliberately stopped from earning enough to fund a new life abroad. Since he wasn't allowed to earn the resources himself, the government of that country should have to donate them to enable him to exercise his right to emigrate. Unfortunately, it seems that if someone wishes to leave a communist country they will just be booted out and left to starve:

if my dream was to emigrate and live in a different society, how much cash would I be given to set myself up there?


Since Luceafarul/Richard Cribb knows more about communism than anyone else on the entire planet, there is no way you can counter this, muahahaha.


TLDR
 
The sad thing is that folks in this thread are arguing as if the labor theory of value is accurate and realistic. It is also argued that the only true production is that of the tangible.

Both statements are wholly wrong

The labor theory of value is discredited
Ideas are worth something.

Thus, Marxist thought is based in a fantasy world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value#Exploitation

Quite, but it appears to many of us from recent events that the money theory
of value so beloved by our gambling bankers was also too fantastic to be real.
 
Quite, but it appears to many of us from recent events that the money theory
of value so beloved by our gambling bankers was also too fantastic to be real.

The Subjective Theory is still as strong as ever!
 
The sad thing is that folks in this thread are arguing as if the labor theory of value is accurate and realistic. It is also argued that the only true production is that of the tangible.

Both statements are wholly wrong

The labor theory of value is discredited
Ideas are worth something.

Thus, Marxist thought is based in a fantasy world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value#Exploitation

I seems to me that the LTV is still sounder about the original source of value than all the other "theories" which came after. If economists weren't so convinced that they are "scientists" and determined to find some "universal truth" out there to validate their politicking as a science, they'd have realized that there can be no real "theory of value", as value is a function of a place and a time (and this is an attack on Marx's idea about history, btw).

Still, even about trade value", prices, the LTV it is still a better approach to such an impossible goal that the marginalist approaches - fantasy ideal theories of people who never handled a real business! - including the laughable notion that markets can ever determine one "equilibrium" (they can't, as buyers and sellers never hold all the information about each other).

As for the value of ideas... ideas are not worth anything by themselves. The execution of ideas is what produces real value. The separation between ideas and its execution is an increasing trend, favored by recent legislation (one which I doubt will last) but it changes nothing: anyone "buying an idea" must still recoup its price by executing it - the idea's price was just an "advancement" of part of the products of that execution. It will be extracted later from someone else's labor (or the buyer will have made a bad deal and lost money). In this sense the selling of ideas is akin to the commissions taken during trade: the attempt is always to take a slice from the pie of someone else's labor. The trader, like the thinker, expends some labor in the process also, but a successful trader will make sure that his slice is disproportionately greater than everyone else's.
 
including the laughable notion that markets can ever determine one "equilibrium" (they can't, as buyers and sellers never hold all the information about each other).
There are plenty of good examples of market equilibrium prices out there.

Buy a coconut at the beach in Rio, for instance. There is no law forcing the salesmen to sell by the same price. There is no monopoly or monopsony - there are hundreds of independent salesmen and millions of buyers. And yet they all sell by the exact same price. If they sell by on cent more, you can just buy from the salesman right by his side, and if they sell by a cent less than they're not profiting as much as they could. And the price adjusts "automatically" to season effects and inflation!

Of course, that's a very simple and perfect textbook example of a market equilibrium. But the principle is there, and there are other scenarios which are as valid.
 
The biggest thing that's wrong with communism is that it's not possible.

Having brainstormed for a couple days, I've come up with three reasons why.

#1: The central tenet of communism is the classless society. Any society faces the dangers of being conquered from without or overthrown by dissidents from within; so, in order to survive, every society must have a military and police. And the minute you create a military or a police force--pow. You have a class structure.

Take a look around the real world right now and note the number of countries currently being run by the military. All too easy, a communist state degenerates into a police state.


#2: In order to avoid the aforementioned class structure, another thing communist societies have to do is give equal shares of economic power to all the citizens. You have to let the citizens trade and buy and sell amongst themselves. The economy cannot be run by any central government agency--that's a concentration of power, i.e. a class system. And when you leave the citizens to themselves, they are going to disagree on how much their stuff is worth. Money doesn't even enter into the problem--money is merely a measure of how much something is worth. Before money ever existed, there were still greedy people (and the ancient version of greedy corporations) being stingy with trading their stuff and seeking lots of good in trade for whatever they happened to be producing. Leave the citizens to themselves, and a capitalist system will develop automatically.


#3: By far the worst problem with communists is their lack of tolerance. They're just like Greenpeace activists, vegans, and Seventh Day Adventists--it's not enough for them to practice communism, everybody else around them has to be a communist as well. As a result, whenever a communist state does develop, it gets all preachy at everybody, pisses off all its neighbors, and gets its collective ass kicked.

Communism will never succeed until its practitioners lose the attitude, and that will never happen.
 
Why does the institution of a military or police force automatically preclude the possibility of a classless society? Surely different occupations don't constitute classes, or the whole idea would obviously be moot from the beginning. And surely in a utopian society, power would not corrupt, and defence and law enforcement would be purely to carry out the will of the people, which would be to maintain law and order. If the people's will is carried out without any corruption of power, how is there any class system created?
 
An officer is to a private like a heriditary peer is to me - I could theoretically become equal to him, but in practise it's not going to happen - and he started out above me. Their army proved that you can't have a system where everyone's nose is at the grindstone, because someone has to turn the handles
 
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