What if your race is the dumbest of them all?

[Kyriakos]

Fair enough, but we are so close to the point where we could actually fix these group differences by applying positive eugenics. Couple goes to get gene therapy, the kid comes out smarter for it (and we could also erase certain genetic diseases while we're at it). Everyone would be better off. But we can't do any of this unless we acknowledge the reality.

As for why some would avoid this field, the answer is rather obvious. The people who step out of line are subjected to intense harassment.


Yes, I realize that Nijenhuis' numbers are not perfect (there are some other criticism one could make besides the ones you pointed out). But again, that's all we have. As for the language argument and the likes, this is why I prefer to use US numbers to establish the gap. They are much better established findings, with much larger sample sizes and without any language bias.

As for any possible cultural bias, we can have that debate if you want. But for now, I would leave you with this. Experts don't think that they are biased. We can go into detail on this topic if you want.

The only 'fixing' which is not science fiction/dangerous is that people can detect if the child will be born with some serious ailment, eg down syndrome, and opt to terminate the pregnancy while it is legal (timeframe). If you actually think that current medicine can increase the child's iq, and moreover has no side effect/is accurate, then indeed you live in a fantasy, which may be dangerous itself, Hehehe. First do no frigging harm.

 

[Hehehe]

The only 'fixing' which is not science fiction/dangerous is that people can detect if the child will be born with some serious ailment, eg down syndrome, and opt to terminate the pregnancy while it is legal (timeframe). If you actually think that current medicine can increase the child's iq, and moreover has no side effect/is accurate, then indeed you live in a fantasy, which may be dangerous itself, Hehehe. First do no frigging harm.

I'm not talking about abortion, I'm talking about genetic engineering. And it's much closer than you realize. Allow me to elaborate:

Right now, the way fertility treatments work, is that they collect eggs from women, fertilize them, and implant them back into the womb. People are already doing this. It is already possible.

Next step would be to collect multiple fertilized eggs, read their genetic make-up, and only plant the desired ones. You could take, for example, 20 eggs, and see if they have the genetics for intelligence/height/good looks/whatever, and only implant the ones that do. Theoretically this is possible, but we don't have a very good understanding of the human genome. We don't know what most genes do. But people are already on this, and it is very likely that they will crack this in the near future. Also, we've already found some genes that are connected to intelligence, even if it is only a small portion of the total. Likewise, we've found some genes that cause genetic diseases. And I'm sure we'll find much more as our understanding increases.

Next step from this would be CRISPR. Full on genetic engineering. Implant whatever genes you want. "Designer babies", if you will. I can't give you a good estimate as to when we could apply this, but it is something to keep an eye on.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I would definitely like crisper babies.

 

[Kyriakos]

I'm not talking about abortion, I'm talking about genetic engineering. And it's much closer than you realize. Allow me to elaborate:

Right now, the way fertility treatments work, is that they collect eggs from women, fertilize them, and implant them back into the womb. People are already doing this. It is already possible.

Next step would be to collect multiple fertilized eggs, read their genetic make-up, and only plant the desired ones. You could take, for example, 20 eggs, and see if they have the genetics for intelligence/height/good looks/whatever, and only implant the ones that do. Theoretically this is possible, but we don't have a very good understanding of the human genome. We don't know what most genes do. But people are already on this, and it is very likely that they will crack this in the near future. Also, we've already found some genes that are connected to intelligence, even if it is only a small portion of the total. Likewise, we've found some genes that cause genetic diseases. And I'm sure we'll find much more as our understanding increases.

Next step from this would be CRISPR. Full on genetic engineering. Implant whatever genes you want. "Designer babies", if you will. I can't give you a good estimate as to when we could apply this, but it is something to keep an eye on.

You claim that because currently an egg can be collected, fertilized, and implanted into a uterus, the next step is to read the egg's genetic make-up and plant the desired ones. That is like claiming that because currently you can take out item x from place y, next step is that you will scan item x of all qualities and watch it/predict it grow into something in the course of 80 years, with positive and moreso specific re iq results. To term this as a leap of faith would be really a conservative comment on just how much unreal your claim is. Furthermore, the next step you speak of is fantasy today, at least you seem to accept this, so again how does it support your dna dreams in the first place? You can't say "what i claim is true cause in the future you will see it is true", all along inserting some fantasy of hugely specific and accurate re iq effects examination of (only the most complicated object ever) DNA.

Not that you could be within reality when another of your claims is that 'askenazy jews have clearly higher iq than everyone else', when anyone could note how only a tiny percentage of any population will win a nobel prize (your "proof" of your claim). Sadly (or not) jewish people (of any dna make-up) can and are just as dumb by and large as any other group, as guessed by how many dumb things you see people do in Israel itself (as in any other country), eg ridiculous cult-y religious groups there, and recreational- watching of palestinians be bombed. Just because you didn't claim 'white people' (sic) are the most intelligent, but that ask jews are, doesn't make it any less racist or wrong.

 

[Hehehe]

You claim that because currently an egg can be collected, fertilized, and implanted into a uterus, the next step is to read the egg's genetic make-up and plant the desired ones. That is like claiming that because currently you can take out item x from place y, next step is that you will scan item x of all qualities and watch it/predict it grow into something in the course of 80 years, with positive and moreso specific re iq results. To term this as a leap of faith would be really a conservative comment on just how much unreal your claim is. Furthermore, the next step you speak of is fantasy today, at least you seem to accept this, so again how does it support your dna dreams in the first place? You can't say "what i claim is true cause in the future you will see it is true", all along inserting some fantasy of hugely specific and accurate re iq effects examination of (only the most complicated object ever) DNA.

IVF selection would require evolution in science. Not revolution, but evolution. It's really not that far-fetched to think that it will become a reality. Future will tell.

Furthermore, if you really think that you're right and I am wrong, shouldn't you be exited? After all, IVF selection can solve this question pretty definitively. If we (or the Chinese) do it and it results in clear increases in IQ, then the case for genetics is undeniable? And if it does nothing, well that would prove you right, wouldn't it?

Not that you could be within reality when another of your claims is that 'askenazy jews have clearly higher iq than everyone else', when anyone could note how only a tiny percentage of any population will win a nobel prize (your "proof" of your claim). Sadly (or not) jewish people (of any dna make-up) can and are just as dumb by and large as any other group, as guessed by how many dumb things you see people do in Israel itself (as in any other country), eg ridiculous cult-y religious groups there, and recreational- watching of palestinians be bombed. Just because you didn't claim 'white people' (sic) are the most intelligent, but that ask jews are, doesn't make it any less racist or wrong.

We already went through all of this before. Please, try to memorize what I say next time.

Also, just out of curiosity, Kyriakos are you an anti-semite? You seem to have a strong emotional reaction to what I'm saying, especially the part about Jewish people having a higher IQ?

In 2014 the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) in the US published the results of a survey that examined attitudes towards Jews around the world. As far as Europe was concerned, the surprising thing about this investigation was that anti-Semitic prejudices, resentments and stereotypes were most prevalent not in countries like Poland, Hungary or Ukraine, but in Greece, where they registered 69 percent.

In Greece itself the seriousness of this survey was called into question. Now, however, Greek scientists from the University of Macedonia in Thessaloniki and the University of Oxford have reached similar conclusions. The new study was commissioned by the Heinrich Böll Foundation, and was presented in Berlin.

Several representative surveys of around 1,000 participants looked at three central questions. Around 75 percent of the participants were convinced that the Jews exploited the Holocaust for their own interests. Around 65 percent thought that Israel treated the Palestinians exactly as the Nazis had the Jews. And 71 percent were convinced that Jews "hold power" – either as citizens, as a state or as business people. The participants' sex was not a factor in their views, but age did seem to play a part: The older a person was, the more anti-Semitic the views they expressed. By contrast, the higher their level of education, the lower their degree of anti-Semitism.

 

[Kyriakos]

Ehm, yeah, m8, you got me. You may remember it from last time yourself.

I react to your claim that 'jewish people have higher iq' cause it is garbage.

 

[Hehehe]

I react to your claim that 'jewish people have higher iq' cause it is garbage.

Again, we already went over this as well.

Are you an anti-semite? If you want to argue in favor of anti-semitism, can you do me a solid and do it in some other thread?

 

[Kyriakos]

Again, we already went over this as well.

Are you an anti-semite? If you want to argue in favor of anti-semitism, can you do me a solid and do it in some other thread?

M8, it would be easy for you if anyone telling you that you are wrong was doing so due to being anti-semite. Sorry that i am not one, and thus you should try harder to identify what is going on here.
Moreover (and lol) it is cool that you think my claim that jewish people are NOT smarter than everyone else, is supposedly racist (...). A bit entitled, no? Jewish people also don't have wings, which also isn't a racist claim; it is just logical.

 

[Hehehe]

M8, it would be easy for you if anyone telling you that you are wrong was doing so due to being anti-semite. Sorry that i am not one, and thus you should try harder to identify what is going on here.

Ok, fair enough, if you say you're not then I will take your word for it. So what is going on here then? You're repeating the same claims that I already debunked. Why?

 

[Kyriakos]

You did not debunk them. But do feel free to think you did. I mean, this is the internet, so why not. Anyone can think what they will.

 

[Ryika]

Evidence for the claim that Jews might have a higher-than-average IQ:

One observational basis for inferring that Ashkenazi Jews have high intelligence is their prevalence in intellectually demanding fields. While only about 2% of the U.S. population is of full Ashkenazi Jewish descent,[1] 27% of United States Nobel prize winners in the 20th century,[1][2] 25% of Fields Medal winners, 25% of ACM Turing Award winners,[1] 9 out of the 19 world chess champions, and a quarter of Westinghouse Science Talent Search winners have either full or partial Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry.[citation needed]

A more direct approach is to measure intelligence with psychometric tests. Different studies have found different results, but most have found above-average verbal and mathematical intelligence in Ashkenazi Jews, along with below-average spatial intelligence.[2][3][4][5]

The average IQ score of Ashkenazi Jews has been calculated to be 112–115 (Cochran et al.),[6].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence


Evidence against the claim that Jews might have a higher-than-average IQ:

jewish people (of any dna make-up) [...] can and are just as dumb by and large as any other group, as guessed by how many dumb things you see people do in Israel itself

 

[Kyriakos]

Hm, this is now tv trolling level of debate, so keep it up, Val.

 

[Hehehe]

Ok, how about income? Or how about educational attainment? And please, do keep in mind, I mean only Ashkenazi Jews.

Also, please do keep in mind that there are many different ethnicities of Jewish people. Israel isn't majority Ashkenazi, hence the low average IQ.

Evidence for the claim that Jews might have a higher-than-average IQ:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence

Ah, there it is. I was looking for this, thanks.

Kyriakos please, this is embarrassing. You're rehashing the same debunked arguments. Do you honestly have the memory of a goldfish? What goes in from one ear comes out of the other?

 

[Ryika]

Hm, this is now tv trolling level of debate, so keep it up, Val.

All I have done is to summarize the situation. There is actual evidence for the higher IQ of Jews (and the Wiki-pages lists a number of possible reasons for why they might exist). You have done nothing to show why the evidence is not valid and instead just dismissed it, then followed up with possibly the worst argument that has ever been made in the history of mankind.

The fact that that creates a comedic effect is because of the situation itself. That's not trolling, it's just me showing that you're in a position where you're defending a notion that you obviously don't know how to defend.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Fair enough, but we are so close to the point where we could actually fix these group differences by applying positive eugenics. Couple goes to get gene therapy, the kid comes out smarter for it (and we could also erase certain genetic diseases while we're at it). Everyone would be better off. But we can't do any of this unless we acknowledge the reality.

Yeah, thanks, Ill gladly pass. Speak for yourself lol

Next step would be to collect multiple fertilized eggs, read their genetic make-up, and only plant the desired ones.

I would be one of those *undesirable* ones being born with asthma, neurodermitis and some other minor ****, as would be many friends and loved ones.

feels nice not existing in your perfect society, tho

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm pretty sure some Africans will have descendants to be very successful, former President Barack Obama had ancestors from Kenya.

Obama is the son of an elite African who was able to immigrate to the US to for post-graduate education. (He came here on a special academic program which the president approved at the request of Harry Belafonte. Our 44th president would not have been born were it not for the popularity of the Banana Boat Song.)

Recent African immigrants are the highest IQ demographic in this country, above any native born groups or even East Asian immigrants. This is mostly because the difficulty of the process of legally immigrating from Africa weeds out everyone except those of the highest socioeconomic status in their home countries.

It may be worth noting that Asians were stereotyped as being especially stupid, much dumber even than the recently freed African-American slaves, until some blatantly racist protectionist immigration policies which made it virtually impossible for any East Asians to come here who were not already millionaires.

 

[Hehehe]

Yeah, thanks, Ill gladly pass. Speak for yourself lol

I would be one of those *undesirable* ones being born with asthma, neurodermitis and some other minor ****, as would be many friends and loved ones.

feels nice not existing in your perfect society, tho

Is asthma a genetic disease? I didn't even know that. If it is, then I myself wouldn't exist in "my perfect society". But is that such a bad thing? IVF selection isn't going to erase my existance. But it can make sure that my offspring will not have the same disease as I do. Is that something to be avoided? I think not. If we can better humanity, why should we not do it?

 

[Akka]

Yeah, thanks, Ill gladly pass. Speak for yourself lol

I would be one of those *undesirable* ones being born with asthma, neurodermitis and some other minor ****, as would be many friends and loved ones.

feels nice not existing in your perfect society, tho

That's a pretty knee-jerk and nonsensical reaction, akin to anti-abortion debate.
You also wouldn't be here if your parents were tired the day they conceived you. Does this mean tiredness is Evil ?

 

[Ryika]

I would be one of those *undesirable* ones being born with asthma, neurodermitis and some other minor ****, as would be many friends and loved ones.

feels nice not existing in your perfect society, tho

The only reason you think it's a problem is that you were lucky enough to exist. Had you never existed, you would not care. Just as all the other eggs that could have become different people but were never fertilized, or even all the other sperms that raced against the sperm that eventually took part in your creation, could have been people who now don't exist, and none of them cares about it.

All people of the future in which we may be able to fiddle with the genetic makeup of people also don't exist yet, so none of the ones who could theoretically exist but won't, will ever care.

___

Another way of looking at it: Imagine you were the product of manual generic selection. Now somebody makes the argument: "Maybe we should not fiddle with nature. Maybe we're supposed to have flaws." - what would your argument be? The exact same argument, right? Just that that theoretical person could also bring forth the argument that the people who would exist would have more problems with generic defects and similar things.

So really, your argument is a purely emotional one that comes solely from a perspective of what "is today" and who you are, it does in no way say that what "is today" is right, ideal, or better than what could be.

 

[Lexicus]

Recent African immigrants are the highest IQ demographic in this country

I have a related anecdote. When I first moved to DC I lived with four black guys who went to Howard, two of whom were Nigerian immigrants, pretty clearly from relatively well-off families. Both of those guys were studying engineering and I got the feeling they were a lot smarter than me.