What if your race is the dumbest of them all?

Well, the Greeks aren't what they used to be since their bloodlines got pollutd by Slavs and Turks...

This stale meme is still surprisingly common among the more feeble minded parts of the alt-right, even though there are mounts of evidence that disprove the "greeks/turks/arabs/etc." are rape babies and that this could somehow affect the gene pool on an entire people on a grand scale. Even the Mongol conquests (and rapes..) of Europe had little impact, simply because populations were already sizeable a thousand years ago. Frankly speaking, anything that lasts less than half a milennium is not going to have a meteoric impact on the genetics of a (sizeable) population.

A lot of populations, if anything, are still more heterogenous than we think. To imagine that there are Assyrians who are genetically very close to the ones who lived ~4000 years ago is simply baffling. The same goes for Korea, for example, even though Korea is one of the countries in asia that suffered perhaps the worst or second worst mass rapes from the Japanese. Sorry to talk about rape in such a light fashion, I genuinely hope no one gets upset over this, it wasn't my intention at all.
 
If anyone is interested why sub saharan Africans score so low in IQ compared to Europeans or Asians (about ~82-85 compared to >100) I will gladly elaborate.
Because of bad education and living standards?
 
I'd risk the guess that anyone believing subsaharans on average have >=-30 iq to europeans is having iq deficiencies themselves. But it is fun that a thread based on a premise of two known clowns in a non-scientific field has made it this long. :)
 
Last edited:
Because of bad education and living standards?

Yes, those are two big reasons, however there are some which are even more important yet get mentioned infrequently:

- Childhood malnutrition, even if it's just for a matter of days/weeks, can cause life-long braindamage if it happens in a critical phase

(A study from the University of Southern Carolina linked low-scoring in IQ tests,
aggressive and antisocial behaviour to malnutrition during childhood (Mednick and Venables,
2004). This is especially true for malnutrition in the early postnatal phase (Mednick and Venables,
2004). The authors followed the nutritional, behavioural and cognitive development of more than
1,000 children for over 14 years. One of the co-authors, Adrian Raine notes: “Poor nutrition,
characterized by zinc, vitamin B and protein deficiencies, leads to low IQ, which leads to antisocial
behaviour, these are all nutrients linked to brain development” )

- Noise pollution is one of the biggest factor for stress and one of the most determining factors for test-taking, not just IQ but any test. Noise pollution is especially bad in urbanized Africa, but not as bad in rural Africa

- But of course you are right in your assessment. I can think of many different reasons as of why Africans score so much lower: War, trauma, shattered families, parents unable to support their children's learning endeavors because they never had sufficient education and so forth.
 
The greatest thing about Lynn's research is that for Croatia, he used data from the 1950s to generate the average national IQ :lol:

Well, that explains the Balkans. Iirc there were only three universities in (Ex-)Yugoslavia just after WW2 and now there are about twenty, plus technical schools that "only" focus on "applied stuff" like engineering. And that's only higher education. My parents both grew up in bumfck villages and only my mother has even "finished" grade school (my father's "education" was rudely interrupted by invading Literally Nazis).
In an IQ test that includes higher math (higher as in algebra+) they'd both be certifiable morons and they fall for populist politicians, but when I talk to them about politics or science I see that there was a lot of wasted potential and they often come to pretty smart conclusions with zero to little prodding on my part.

Neither are the germans, same reason amirite :)

The Germans also aren't what they used to be. And that's a Good Thing.

No, it is garbage. You should look for some of his quotes, the person is really a clown.

I don't doubt it.

Of course - as you obviously also mean - slavs and turks aren't braindead either. Moreover, it is debatable how many actual turks do exist in the overall region (i mean they seem to be heavily descended from anatolians and balkans in the first place; the turkic people weren't that many in Anatolia).

This stale meme is still surprisingly common among the more feeble minded parts of the alt-right, even though there are mounts of evidence that disprove the "greeks/turks/arabs/etc." are rape babies and that this could somehow affect the gene pool on an entire people on a grand scale. Even the Mongol conquests (and rapes..) of Europe had little impact, simply because populations were already sizeable a thousand years ago. Frankly speaking, anything that lasts less than half a milennium is not going to have a meteoric impact on the genetics of a (sizeable) population.

Yeah, people constantly overestimate the impact of migration. I'm always equally amused and annoyed when some people say that Germany or Europe will be 50% Muslim/Arab in twenty years.
Historically when the "ethnicity" ir "culture" of a region changed -like when Rome became Germanic, or the Byzantine Empire became the Ottoman Empire- the dispalcement mostly took place in the upper classes who were then able to dictate language and political norms among the people who could write our historical sources of the times. I think the changes were very real in the past -exemplified by the current dominace of Slavic languages in Southern Europe- but after the switch from top down monarchy to bottom up democracy it's very unlikely to occur in the future.
 
Last edited:
But it is fun that a thread based on a premise of two known clowns in a non-scientific field has made it this long. :)
Wait, but this is my thread, and it's not based on the premise on anything, and not making any claims about there definitely being any inherent IQ differences, it's merely creating a hypothetical scenario in which they exist and the race you're part of, not people in sub saharan Africa or whatever other place, are scoring by far the worst. And what do clowns have to do with this thread?! While I think there jobs that correlate with low IQ, the job of the clown is probably not one of them.

Yes, those are two big reasons, however there are some which are even more important yet get mentioned infrequently:

- Childhood malnutrition, even if it's just for a matter of days/weeks, can cause life-long braindamage if it happens in a critical phase

(A study from the University of Southern Carolina linked low-scoring in IQ tests,
aggressive and antisocial behaviour to malnutrition during childhood (Mednick and Venables,
2004). This is especially true for malnutrition in the early postnatal phase (Mednick and Venables,
2004). The authors followed the nutritional, behavioural and cognitive development of more than
1,000 children for over 14 years. One of the co-authors, Adrian Raine notes: “Poor nutrition,
characterized by zinc, vitamin B and protein deficiencies, leads to low IQ, which leads to antisocial
behaviour, these are all nutrients linked to brain development” )

- Noise pollution is one of the biggest factor for stress and one of the most determining factors for test-taking, not just IQ but any test. Noise pollution is especially bad in urbanized Africa, but not as bad in rural Africa

- But of course you are right in your assessment. I can think of many different reasons as of why Africans score so much lower: War, trauma, shattered families, parents unable to support their children's learning endeavors because they never had sufficient education and so forth.
Now that you say it, I even remember having seen a documentary about the barrier to brain development that even bad diet is years ago. Made me eat an apple every day, but then I realized that I'm way already too old and that the damage has already been done anyway, so I saved some money on not having to buy apples anymore. ...which I think was pretty intelligent, so the damage can't be that bad, hehehe! ;)

Joking aside though, your criticisms of the study mirror the same criticisms that can be found in other responses. I find it very telling that people continue to use it without really making counter-arguments against the criticism, and instead just ignore it and pretend it does not exist.
 
[QUOTE="Valessa, post: 14886113, member: 249319"
Joking aside though, your criticisms of the study mirror the same criticisms that can be found in other responses. I find it very telling that people continue to use it without really making counter-arguments against the criticism, and instead just ignore it and pretend it does not exist.[/QUOTE]

Because creating counter-arguments to one's own counterarguments would cause an infinite loop? Every argument has, at some point, been made already.. What exactly is your point?

My criticism of Lynn's study were pretty handfest, especially concerning his flawed methodology and sampling, and have been seen no where else ITT afaik..
 
Yeah, people constantly overestimate the impact of migration. I'm always equally amused and annoyed when some people say that Germany or Europe will be 50% Muslim/Arab in twenty years.
Historically when the "ethnicity" ir "culture" of a region changed -like when Rome became Germanic, or the Byzantine Empire became the Ottoman Empire- the dispalcement mostly took place in the upper classes who were then able to dictate language and political norms among the people who could write our historical sources of the times. I think the changes were very real in the past -exemplified by the current dominace of Slavic languages in Southern Europe- but after the switch from top down monarchy to bottom up democracy it's very unlikely to occur in the future.
Did you even look at the change of North America's population between 1600 and today ?
 
Did you even look at the change of North America's population between 1600 and today ?

No. What's the change ?
That they're (almost) all Muslims ? Explained by Upper Class Dispalcement.
That they (almost) all speak Arabic (with Berber influence) ? Explained by Upper Class Dispalcement.
That many of them speak French (with some Berber influenced Arabic influence) ?
Explained by Upper Class Dispalcement.

If there's something else I've missed, please enlighten me.
 
Because creating counter-arguments to one's own counterarguments would cause an infinite loop? Every argument has, at some point, been made already.. What exactly is your point?

My criticism of Lynn's study were pretty handfest, especially concerning his flawed methodology and sampling, and have been seen no where else ITT afaik..
Huh? I was referring to civver_764's reaction to being told that the data that was used to create the map he posted, is flawed, not to your post. ;)
 
No. What's the change ?
That they're (almost) all Muslims ? Explained by Upper Class Dispalcement.
That they (almost) all speak Arabic (with Berber influence) ? Explained by Upper Class Dispalcement.
That many of them speak French (with some Berber influenced Arabic influence) ?
Explained by Upper Class Dispalcement.

If there's something else I've missed, please enlighten me.

Erm yeah you missed something rather major: North America; not Africa.

Although North (and South) America are rather unique cases owing to diseases ensuring basically empty land for Europeans to expand into.
 
Did you even look at the change of North America's population between 1600 and today ?

Erm yeah you missed something rather major: North America; not Africa.

Although North (and South) America are rather unique cases owing to diseases ensuring basically empty land for Europeans to expand into.

Oh...uhm...my bad.
Yeah, sorry. I thought Akka is French ? I think I prematurely jumped to Wrong Context based on baked in (Anti-French, those damn colonialists) prejudices. That's a obvious exception.
Still, in my defence, North America was a special case in regards to geographical isolation (and organized genocide when the genociding polity was politically and technologically quite advanced) and Viking smallpox and so on...
 
Oh...uhm...my bad.
Yeah, sorry. I thought Akka is French ? I think I prematurely jumped to Wrong Context based on baked in (Anti-French, those damn colonialists) prejudices. That's a obvious exception.
Still, in my defence, North America was a special case in regards to geographical isolation (and organized genocide when the genociding polity was politically and technologically quite advanced) and Viking smallpox and so on...

Isn't he french? Would be very surprising if he was belgian instead. Pretty sure he is french.
 
Sorry everyone for the necro, but this was very much needed. We have to clear this up, I cannot let this stand as "fact". First off, let us examine the source of this IQ map:

These numbers came from a work carried out from 2002 to 2006 by Richard Lynn, a British Professor of Psychology, and Tatu Vanhanen, a Finnish Professor of Political Science, who conducted IQ studies in more than 80 countries.

Richard and Tatu argues that differences in national income are correlated with differences in the average national intelligence quotient (IQ). They further argue that differences in average national IQs constitute one important factor, but not the only one, contributing to differences in national wealth and rates of economic growth.

These results are controversial and have caused much debate, they must be interpreted with extreme caution.

Sources:

All these studies were published only by Lynn and Vanhanen. A few pages earlier I posted a study that specifically responded to "IQ and Global Inequality" which was subsequently ignored. I had already written a paper on Lynn two years ago, where I researched some of his publications. I specifically focussed on sub-saharan Africa, because it shows best his absolutely desolate state of research and the many mistakes he did in his methodology/sampling:

“IQ and global inequality” is a book written by psychologist Richard Lynn and political scientist
Tatu Vanhanen. It was published in 2006 as a follow-up to 2002s “IQ and the Wealth of Nations”. It
deals with global EQ in relation to economic development. Flynn and Vanhanen develop the thesis,
that countries with a higher average intelligence score generally develop stronger economies (Lynn
and Vanhanen 2006). The average IQ of a nation is shown in relation to a British mean of 100 with
a standard variation of 15. I will focus on one key aspect of the book which brought the authors a
lot of criticism: The average IQ of sub-Saharan nations. Lynn has been publishing on this topic
since the 1970s, a lot of his research material has been cited in the 1994 book “The Bell Curve” by
psychologist Richard J. Hernnstein, which has been both praised and strongly criticised by U.S.
American academia, among others Noam Chomsky (Chomsky 1972). Throughout multiple
publications Lynn arrives at an average IQ of 68 or 67 for Africans living in sub-Saharan countries
(Lynn and Vanhanen 2006). As a comparison, predominantly “white” countries all scored above 100
and “east-Asian” countries score even higher on average (Lynn and Vanhanen 2006).

(me)

One of the most pragmatic responses to Lynn's body of work was published by three
researchers from the Dutch University of Amsterdam in the year 2010. Under the name of
“A systematic literature review of the average IQ of sub-saharan Africans” the team consisting of
Jelte M. Wicherts, Conor V. Dolan and Han L.J. Van der Maas analysed data of African students
performing on a multitude of different IQ tests. They arrive at an average of 82 (Wicherts, Dolan
and Van der Maas 2010). They also criticise his methodology:

(me again)

"For instance, Lynn and Vanhanen (2006) accorded a national IQ of 69 to Nigeria on the
basis of three samples (Fahrmeier, 1975; Ferron, 1965; Wober, 1969), but they did not
consider other relevant published studies that indicated that average IQ in Nigeria is
considerably higher than 70 (Maqsud, 1980a,b; Nenty & Dinero, 1981; Okunrotifa, 1976).
DISCUSSING LYNN'S WORKS ON RACE IN RELATION TO IQ 6
As Lynn rightly remarked during the 2006 conference of the International Society for
Intelligence Research (ISIR), performing a literature review involves making a lot of
choices. Nonetheless, an important drawback of Lynn (and Vanhanen)'s reviews of the
literature is that they are unsystematic.” (Wicherts et al, 2010)

Lynn decided to respond directly and published “The average IQ of sub-Saharan African:
Comments on Wicherts, Dolan and van der Maas” together with Gerhard Meisenberg. In this paper,
Lynn criticises the sampling of the trio (Lynn and Meisenberg 2010). He goes on to say that the IQ
tests they reviewed were carefully picked and that the students in question were elite students and
therefore not representative (Lynn & Meisenberg 2010). Lynn lists sources that focus heavily on
mathematical and reading ability and arrives at the same average of 68. He foregoes the Progressive
Matrices test developed by John C. Raven, a multiple choice test that focus on the reasoning of the
test-taker (Raven 1936). In the Raven test, sub-Saharan Africans scored notably better.
In February 2010 the three researchers from the University of Amsterdam replied yet
again in a paper titled “Another failure to replicate Lynn's estimate of an average IQ of sub
Saharan Africans”. They take note of Lynn's criticism and instead use a cluster of random samples
this time, yet arrive at the same average of 82. (Wicherts et al 2010). They criticise Lynn's
methodology and his conscious omitting of unfavourable data. (Wicherts et al 2010). There has yet
to come a direct response from Lynn."

(me again, sorry for the masturbatory post, but this saves a lot of work)
A very good post indeed. And you may very well be right. Perhaps the IQ of Sub-Saharan Africans really is 82. But the thing is, if you want to argue the egalitarian case, you will want to go with the numbers that Lynn and Vanhanen provided.

See, the thing is, there are significant differences in the environments in Sub-Saharan Africa compared to Europe and North America. If the IQ of black people in Sub-Saharan Africa (82) is close to that of black people in industrialized western countries (85), then that would seem to suggest that environment (as opposed to genetics) doesn't make much of a difference. Then again I guess that would be completely in line with the general heritability estimates.
 
See, the thing is, there are significant differences in the environments in Sub-Saharan Africa compared to Europe and North America. If the IQ of black people in Sub-Saharan Africa (82) is close to that of black people in industrialized western countries (85), then that would seem to suggest that environment (as opposed to genetics) doesn't make much of a difference. Then again I guess that would be completely in line with the general heritability estimates.

I would interpretate it that the environment in the US for the average black is bad.

There is BTW a nice study of a Japanese cast (!), that underperform in Japan on IQ tests compared to other Japaneses people, but that have the same IQ compared to other Japanese people when tested in the US (both groups living in the US)
Something like 10-15 IQ points IIRC.

The special thing here is that this cast does not differ in any way in appearance. So they are in the US treated similar by US people/institutions as other Japanese.
The cast originated long time ago in Japan, Japan being very much a cast society, and they could be recognised by their clothes and IIRC a special hairband. They did the dirty work with slaughter and dead bodies etc.
Officially this discrimination in Japan does ofc no longer exist.
I forgot the name, but if somebody interested I can dig it up.
 
Oh...uhm...my bad.
Yeah, sorry. I thought Akka is French ? I think I prematurely jumped to Wrong Context based on baked in (Anti-French, those damn colonialists) prejudices.
I should shriek "racism" here :p
That's a obvious exception.
Still, in my defence, North America was a special case in regards to geographical isolation (and organized genocide when the genociding polity was politically and technologically quite advanced) and Viking smallpox and so on...
It's a bit of a cop-out to claim it's a special case. There were a lot of population changes due to migrations, for a long time (natives => WASP + black slaves => Europeans => Hispanics). I'm talking about very noticeable changes in the population stat due to migrations.

Also your argument was how the population changes were due to the elite displacement - Europe is seeing population change through the exact opposite, it's not the elite which are displaced, it's the lowest social classes (it's also the same in the USA, in fact).

You think that people overrate migration changes, I think you underrate it.
 
I would interpretate it that the environment in the US for the average black is bad.
I daresay that the quality of life for black Americans is much better than for Sub-Saharan Africans (do I even need to dig up statistics for this?). That such a huge difference in environments would only produce a change of 3 IQ points would suggest that the effect environment has is pretty small. Also, blacks in Europe also have an IQ around 85, and European countries generally have a good safety net and public healthcare.
There is BTW a nice study of a Japanese cast (!), that underperform in Japan on IQ tests compared to other Japaneses people, but that have the same IQ compared to other Japanese people when tested in the US (both groups living in the US)
Something like 10-15 IQ points IIRC.

The special thing here is that this cast does not differ in any way in appearance. So they are in the US treated similar by US people/institutions as other Japanese.
The cast originated long time ago in Japan, Japan being very much a cast society, and they could be recognised by their clothes and IIRC a special hairband. They did the dirty work with slaughter and dead bodies etc.
Officially this discrimination in Japan does ofc no longer exist.
I forgot the name, but if somebody interested I can dig it up.
I haven't seen that study, but even if that were true, there could be a huge number of reasons for that. Such a finding would in no way contradict the hereditarian position.
 
https://www.theverge.com/platform/a...chizophrenia-cholesterol-hair-skin-loneliness

Neanderthals may not have enjoyed the genetic diversity to survive us, isolation, incest, may have done them in

Here below another article that also sees a lower genetic diversity as important for their extinction.
I add the article because it also mentions the disease Herpes Simplex as possible tipping cause.
Conventional opinion on Herpes is that it was picked up from apes and could spread over Homo Sapiens after our population density grew with the agricultural revolution. But there is really no proof for that. So we could easily have picked up Herpes much earlier than 10,000 years ago, because our social habit to cover big distances for our mates, generating our genetic diversity, would cover the speading of the virus.
From there our contacts with the Neandertaler, infecting them tribe for tribe, could have been too much, them having a less diverse gene pool to survive.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160412-what-really-happened-when-we-met-neanderthals

BTW in that theverge article a scientists suggests that Homo Sapiens was as hunter gather 40k years ago more succesful because of dogs.
To my knowledge dogs started to exist around 13k years ago.
 
Back
Top Bottom