What is "leftism"?

[Borachio]

Yes, ComradeDavo. But the evidence being undeniable isn't enough. For example there's no law against denying the American Civil War happened.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Hold your horses son, I meant you personally not the military. But we can see how you won't defend people's right to free speech at all, certainly not to the death (you wont even cross a border), rendering the quote and it's sentiment utterly and completely worthless.

I don't see the relevance of your point. Are you asserting that I ought to go try to overthrow the German government or hold Angela Merkel hostage until she signs Holocaust speech-restricting laws out of the books? That isn't the principle of the statement, and I think you know it.

Yes, ComradeDavo. But the evidence being undeniable isn't enough. For example there's no law against denying the American Civil War happened.

Can we institute a law against slaveholder apologism?

 

[Borachio]

I don't suppose so, no. Why do you ask?

 

[Oruc]

I don't see the relevance of your point. Are you asserting that I ought to go try to overthrow the German government or hold Angela Merkel hostage until she signs Holocaust speech-restricting laws out of the books? That isn't the principle of the statement, and I think you know it.

I haven't mentioned violence once son, but what exactly have you done then? Have you protested or something? Or is throwing that quote out as far as it goes?

 

[Lord of Elves]

I haven't mentioned violence once son, but what exactly have you done then? Have you protested or something? Or is throwing that quote out as far as it goes?

The principle is the important part of the evocation of the quote. There's no point in talking about how I am not personally fighting at this very moment for the rights of people whose free speech is oppressed in Germany of all places. What have you done today to personally advance the cause of battered women/ending premature birth/pro-choice/pro-life/etc?

 

[civver_764]

Not in Germany, it isn't. Or at least it wasn't at the time the law was passed, I think. Though exactly what the logic was, I wouldn't like to be challenged on.

Holocaust denial is just an expression of an opinion. It doesn't imply that you liked Nazi Germany, that you hate Jews, or anything else. You just have a different interpretation of events. Being bad at history is not something that should be illegal, that's a remarkably stupid suggestion imo.

Woah there. It's a great idea. Holocaust was the most horrific thing to happen in human history. The evidence is undeniable, it happen, no debate. It should never be forgotten. Those who deny it are hatemongering.

Actually they're just expressing their opinion.

 

[Borachio]

Holocaust denial is just an expression of an opinion. It doesn't imply that you liked Nazi Germany, that you hate Jews, or anything else. You just have a different interpretation of events. Being bad at history is not something that should be illegal, that's a remarkably stupid suggestion imo.

Actually, it pretty much does. What other explanation is there?

 

[ComradeDavo]

Yes, ComradeDavo. But the evidence being undeniable isn't enough. For example there's no law against denying the American Civil War happened.

It's more the fact that millions upon millions of people died in an horrific way that makes me think denying it should be illegal. A special case, as you will.

Actually they're just expressing their opinion.

A racist, hateful opinion. Freedom of speach shouldn't mean freedom to lie for malicious, hateful reasons.

 

[Cutlass]

Holocaust denial is just an expression of an opinion. It doesn't imply that you liked Nazi Germany, that you hate Jews, or anything else. You just have a different interpretation of events. Being bad at history is not something that should be illegal, that's a remarkably stupid suggestion imo.

Holocaust denial is not an opinion. No person could hold that "opinion" without a motive for doing so.

 

[civver_764]

Actually, it pretty much does. What other explanation is there?

You can't think of a way in which one could deny the Holocausts' taking place and not be anti-semitic? There might be a strong correlation but being anti-semitic has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you think the holocaust happened.

Holocaust denial is not an opinion. No person could hold that "opinion" without a motive for doing so.

Damn bro I didn't know you were omniscient.

It's like claiming that if you think the US government was responsible for 9/11 you support radical Islam.

 

[ComradeDavo]

Holocaust denial is not an opinion. No person could hold that "opinion" without a motive for doing so.

Actually good point, I shouldn't have used the word 'opinion' in my response just then.

You can't think of a way in which one could deny the Holocausts' taking place and not be anti-semitic? There might be a strong correlation but being anti-semitic has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you think the holocaust happened.

Of course it does. The fact that the Holocaust hapepned is an undeniable fact. To deny it is to straight up lie. And the motives for lying in such a case are based on racist hated.

 

[Borachio]

This is nice in theory, Mr Civver. Just that all the holocaust deniers I've ever encountered in real life or through the media have been Nazi apologists and anti-semites. The only other explanation I can think of is intense stupidity. And that won't do, since I'm confidently stupid myself - and yet I'm not a holocaust denier.

 

[civver_764]

This is nice in theory, Mr Civver. Just that all the holocaust deniers I've ever encountered in real life or through the media have been Nazi apologists and anti-semites. The only other explanation I can think of is intense stupidity. And that won't do, since I'm confidently stupid myself - and yet I'm not a holocaust denier.

It still makes no sense to criminalize holocaust denial, even if everyone who held that opinion was anti-semitic. The problem is their anti-semitism, not their opinion on a historical event.

I could say right now that I think the holocaust was just US propaganda to support the second world war. Am I now anti-semitic? Should I now be arrested in Germany? No that's clearly ridiculous.

And even if we accept that people denying the Holocaust is a problem that needs to be dealt with, I don't see how making it illegal fixes anything. It's the same thing with drug prohibition, people are way too apt to rely on laws. The notion of "I'll just make everything wrong with society illegal!" is just immature imo.

 

[Cutlass]

Damn bro I didn't know you were omniscient.

It's like claiming that if you think the US government was responsible for 9/11 you support radical Islam.

Well no, it's not. Not believing in the holocaust is like not believing in the sun or the moon.

 

[civver_764]

Well no, it's not. Not believing in the holocaust is like not believing in the sun or the moon.

I didn't say it was smart to not believe in the holocaust, just that making it illegal is a stupid idea.

 

[Borachio]

It still makes no sense to criminalize holocaust denial, even if everyone who held that opinion was anti-semitic. The problem is their anti-semitism, not their opinion on a historical event.

I could say right now that I think the holocaust was just US propaganda to support the second world war. Am I now anti-semitic? Should I now be arrested in Germany? No that's clearly ridiculous.

And even if we accept that people denying the Holocaust is a problem that needs to be dealt with, I don't see how making it illegal fixes anything. It's the same thing with drug prohibition, people are way too apt to rely on laws. The notion of "I'll just make everything wrong with society illegal!" is just immature imo.

I understand.

But you've to understand the historical context of holocaust denial illegality in Germany. There was a time immediately after WW2 when a very few Nazi activists tried to continue with a resurgent movement, calling themselves Werewolves I believe. Painting slogans and distorted swastikas about the place. This was immensely unpopular with the German people. And I think, in this kind of climate holocaust denial was made illegal.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Holocaust denial is not an opinion. No person could hold that "opinion" without a motive for doing so.

Yes it is, and yes they could. Why should Holocaust scholarship be denied the standards of academic rigor?

 

[Cutlass]

Yes it is, and yes they could. Why should Holocaust scholarship be denied the standards of academic rigor?

Because it was documented by people who were there to the point where opinion just doesn't enter into it.

 

[potatokiosk]

Holocaust denial is not an opinion. No person could hold that "opinion" without a motive for doing so.

Why couldn't someone claim there was no Holocaust without having a motive for saying so? Even if you regard the Holocaust as an undeniable fact, how does that make Holocaust denial any different from believing the Earth is flat? Can people believe in a flat Earth without a motive for doing so?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Because it was documented by people who were there to the point where opinion just doesn't enter into it.

You don't know much about the historical process then, I guess.

There is much about the Holocaust that is postulation. We have individual accounts, and Allied records that indicate something big and terrible happening, but the precise extent and characteristics of that are still a topic of debate amongst period scholars. There is no disputing that enormous numbers of Jews and other dissidents were sent to labor camps and extermination camps, but precise things like "x number of Jews/communists/Gypsies/et al" died, this thing happened at this location at this time, involving this number of people, are largely postulated.

But then, nearly all of what is termed "Holocaust denial" is really a doubting in some form or another the data and information about the Holocaust and not disputing that the event in some form or another actually occurred; a minority of it is actual "this event did not happen, it is all an imagined fabrication without basis in reality."

So there is a large gray area in a situation which you have already oversimplified.