What is the best UB?

[TheMeInTeam]

What? A map can be hard with enough happiness around, your arguments are getting more silly I'll give you a nice Deity map, boxed in by Shaka and Toku, you get plenty happiness thou and there your game is already won i'm sure.

Fine fine, I overexaggerated. Still, it is equally ridiculous, if not more so, to claim that the near-elimination of from the whip cycle isn't significant. You can easily chain-whip smaller cities indefinitely. With most civs, somewhere between +5 to +10 you're going to have problems with that even using the slider...unless of course you want to invest extra infrastructure beyond granary + rax + discount CH to do it. Even with a theater, you'll eventually run into problems.

Ranking people's skill based on who is more famous on YouTube is absurd.

I agree lol. Though I don't do it, one could look very, very amazing through the power of editing . The only thing I'll claim I can do better than most is play quickly.

And yes, I do like to argue on these boards! I'm sure it's a surprise to everyone, and I was hoping not to out myself...

...

<3.

Edit: While I have played and won every VC on deity (except time) on ancient starts normal speed/map size and even have two HoF spots on the deity table, I dislike playing on deity normally. Much of high difficulty play revolves around using the AI bonuses against it in some way in this game. However, to do that you must keep up to at least a certain extent. Because the jump immortal --> deity is similar to noble --> immortal, the micro required to succeed on deity is unforgiving and thus time-consuming to do well. I don't have the patience to do that normally, which means the most typical deity win for me is ironically (I could AP cheese and win deity regularly, but that loses interest quickly).

Examples of using AI bonus against itself:

- Tech trades (especially brokering intelligently...this one thing can massively increase tech rate if done well)
- Pit AI's against each other at war and then clean up cities
- Any use of permanent alliances
- More typically, use of vassal states as unit sponges, collateral initiative territory, and "islandtarget" cap rules abuse.
- Diplo victories

I have won a few games on deity via nonsense like bulbing engineering with gsci (requires not having fishing), capitulating a target, giving him his cities back, and then SPAM gifting him warriors while declaring on people, allowing my runaway "vassal" to win the game for me.

 

[lymond]

the sac altar is good for what it is and i can see how it would be useful in certain stratagies but it almost never fits with mine as i am rarely if ever in slavery (caste FTW)

Changing your thinking on slavery will change your game immensely for the better. Caste has it's uses, but is mainly a temp civic for GP pumping and possibly a late game civic once production bonus and growth level exceeds the optimization of slavery


As for Fippy:

Spoiler :

I can assure you that she is one of the very top players on this forum. Phil is awesome and I learned a lot in my youth from him, but I know he would admit that his fast play-style and lack of micro prevents him from being upper echelon. Regardless though, he has a great understanding of the game holistically.

 

[qazq2]

I voted Ikhanda but the Sacrificial Altar was a close second... I never would've thought forum in the top 20 though... I guess that is the beauty of civ, someone else may find a use for it or even make a building you wouldn't think twice about good. Terrace is good but I tend to be over-expansive in the early era so the -20 maintenance build-able since the first turn of the game is great for me.

 

[qazq2]

Also I would rate the salon as the worst ub in the game with the dun and forum as close seconds for last place

 

[qazq2]

I do wonder... where is the citadel in this question... it isnt the best ub but it is better than most of the buildings on here

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@Terrace:
What strikes me about it is the potential 4 / turn it can yield in the BCs. After 1000 years, a building's culture doubles. Granary being an early build... that is very possible.
It seems very handy for culture wars (on borders, dominant culture decides who controls the tiles) while one is at peace with his neighbours.

However, if the Terrace is just built to pop borders, then I don't consider it much better than a Monument. Monument can be whipped at size 2, unconditionnally. In many cases (normal speed; and not all cases), that will make the Monument a better build than the Terrace, especially if the food is in the 2nd ring of the city. Terrace doesn't obsolete the Monument.
60 , early game, is very expensive. 30H is expensive but only half of it.

 

[Antilogic]

The baray always struck me as a UB I should like, given its very unique food capability, but it's not like you could run an additional specialist or plains mine with that food.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Well, Baray is quite good nonetheless Very good indeed. But not super-awesome as in... it should be built in every city a.s.a.p. The Mint is built everywhere asap, but mostly because it's a Forge.
If the health doesn't matter, then you're paying a lot for +1 food/turn with a Baray.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I do wonder... where is the citadel in this question... it isnt the best ub but it is better than most of the buildings on here

Indeed, easy access to CR III trebs, cannons, and potentially even arty can be absolutely obnoxious. Citadel is somewhat overshadowed by Spain's UU which is also excellent, but is a very powerful UB. In fact the UU is its main issue; if it were on another civ people might think of the citadel more but it just doesn't mesh all that well with the anti-melee cuirassers 2 moves. Still, if you want medieval war or want to transition into cannons/arty (just avoid econ and you can easily get rifles, arty, SAMs as needed) it's a good UB for it. Usually CR III arty can end the game unless you need the metal navy to invade abroad.

Terrace doesn't obsolete the Monument.
60 , early game, is very expensive. 30H is expensive but only half of it.

While it doesn't obsolete it, you probably skip the monument in a lot of cities:

- Captured Inca cheesing might simply get the terrace immediately
- If you can chop a bit, terrace isn't THAT hard to 1 pop whip
- Even if delayed, if terrace is delayed relative to monument by 5 turns or less, you still get 2nd ring available just as quickly
- Even if delayed beyond that, the food storage might make it still worth it. Monuments are good for very little after 1st border pop.

I don't think the terrace is as good as sac altar or ikhanda, but it's still solid.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

- Captured Inca cheesing might simply get the terrace immediately
- If you can chop a bit, terrace isn't THAT hard to 1 pop whip
- Even if delayed, if terrace is delayed relative to monument by 5 turns or less, you still get 2nd ring available just as quickly
- Even if delayed beyond that, the food storage might make it still worth it. Monuments are good for very little after 1st border pop.

True enough.

- Terraces bringing culture to captured cities I had mentioned in my 1st post: it can come in handy but, on second thought, it isn't what one would expect from a top UB. Niche use.
2nd "-" I had considered. I don't think it makes the Terrace superior to the Monument by itself. If one does chop, he can just chop into a Monument for almost equal benefit (especially considering food in 2nd ring).
3rd & 4th "-" that's the real deal. Quite right!

 

[Doshin]

Tachy's comment...

And for a fair comparison of UB, it should be done albeit the civ that hosts it.

...goes some way towards explaining why the Baray is not as strong as it could be. Aqueducts are middling builds for non-Expansive leaders (one might be built in the capital, another in the GP farm). But Expansive civs already start with +2 , and can get cheap health elsewhere (Granaries, Harbors).

So, at least until the industrial era, you are effectively spending 100 for +1. This isn't the worst deal ever (it's not a bad building), but it's still far from top tier. The Terrace is strong because it can be built by the Inca. If it belonged to a Creative leader, it would be much weaker.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

yup, that assertion from Tachywaxon is very questionable.
Why shouldn't the associated Civ be considered when assessing a UB?


Sury being EXP definitely nerfs the Baray.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

I disagree. We are comparing UB not civs, so other factors (UU, traits, techs) shouldn't be considered. as they can sites the usability (CRE steles and AGG ikhanda).

 

[Antilogic]

So, at least until the industrial era, you are effectively spending 100 for +1. This isn't the worst deal ever (it's not a bad building), but it's still far from top tier. The Terrace is strong because it can be built by the Inca. If it belonged to a Creative leader, it would be much weaker.

Sury being EXP definitely nerfs the Baray.

Looking at the baray in a different light, it lets you build larger cities more quickly and use up that excess health cap a little more efficiently. Being Expansive might be the only reason to really use the baray, otherwise the extra food will go to waste in unhealthiness rather than in extra people.

 

[noto2]

yep i def. won't get into discussions like that, if tmit is your hero...cool, he deserves that for all his videos and stuff, but he can probably appreciate some discussions still.
He's not shy with getting his thoughts onto this board as well, so i don't think others should just bow and agree with everything. Little reality check here.

Listen, friend, TMIT is well known. You might be a very good player but I don't recognize your name, whereas TMIT has a large fan base from this game and other games as well. That poster probably just didn't know who you are. No big deal, no harm meant.

 

[noto2]

Fine fine, I overexaggerated. Still, it is equally ridiculous, if not more so, to claim that the near-elimination of from the whip cycle isn't significant. You can easily chain-whip smaller cities indefinitely. With most civs, somewhere between +5 to +10 you're going to have problems with that even using the slider...unless of course you want to invest extra infrastructure beyond granary + rax + discount CH to do it. Even with a theater, you'll eventually run into problems.



I agree lol. Though I don't do it, one could look very, very amazing through the power of editing . The only thing I'll claim I can do better than most is play quickly.

And yes, I do like to argue on these boards! I'm sure it's a surprise to everyone, and I was hoping not to out myself...

...

<3.

Edit: While I have played and won every VC on deity (except time) on ancient starts normal speed/map size and even have two HoF spots on the deity table, I dislike playing on deity normally. Much of high difficulty play revolves around using the AI bonuses against it in some way in this game. However, to do that you must keep up to at least a certain extent. Because the jump immortal --> deity is similar to noble --> immortal, the micro required to succeed on deity is unforgiving and thus time-consuming to do well. I don't have the patience to do that normally, which means the most typical deity win for me is ironically (I could AP cheese and win deity regularly, but that loses interest quickly).

Examples of using AI bonus against itself:

- Tech trades (especially brokering intelligently...this one thing can massively increase tech rate if done well)
- Pit AI's against each other at war and then clean up cities
- Any use of permanent alliances
- More typically, use of vassal states as unit sponges, collateral initiative territory, and "islandtarget" cap rules abuse.
- Diplo victories

I have won a few games on deity via nonsense like bulbing engineering with gsci (requires not having fishing), capitulating a target, giving him his cities back, and then SPAM gifting him warriors while declaring on people, allowing my runaway "vassal" to win the game for me.

LOL. This is why I stopped trying to increases the difficulty level when I beat emperor and instead looked for mods, happening upon Kmod. What do you think of Kmod? It does seem more challenging and less "gamey" to me than immortal BTS

 

[noto2]

Also I would rate the salon as the worst ub in the game with the dun and forum as close seconds for last place

Salon worse than Dun? Louise has good traits for a run at a cultural victory and salons help with that. The salon could end up making your culture win 10 turns earlier than it otherwise would have been. Weak...but at least that's something. What are you going to do with a dun? Make G2 crossbows???

 

[Fippy]

Aqueducts are really bad buildings imo, even less tempting than markets in most cases..later when factories and such make health more important, you still have harbors too in coastal cities and grocers usually give more health by then...they really bad.
If +1 food would be on anything else, Baray would get more attention and love.

 

[Fippy]

Listen, friend, TMIT is well known. You might be a very good player but I don't recognize your name, whereas TMIT has a large fan base from this game and other games as well. That poster probably just didn't know who you are. No big deal, no harm meant.

I changed my name, as most found out by now prolly..but time to move on, personal stuff on single player forums is just tiresome overall, i make that mistake too often too it's pretty silly.

 

[Doshin]

Ha. I wondered about lymond's Freudian "slip" earlier.