What is with the backlash against feminism?

[Mise]

Not to pick on you Quackers, but you have no problem blaming Muslim culture for rape. It's only Western culture that is incapable of encouraging rape, e.g. BBC or Catholic church or police/universities/authorities ignoring rape accusations and not believing the victims.

 

[Quackers]

Quakerism is a bit confusing to me:

Someone reads and remembers my waffle?

I'm honoured.

 

[JollyRoger]

Quackers, for example, supports A, but not B.

Instead of having an honest and civilized discussion about the issue, it quickly degenerates into name-calling and mudslinging.

In the Quakers example, that degeneracy started while Quakers was stating his case in opposition to point B:

********s

But yeah, the MRAs are the victims in this debate.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

In the Quakers example, that degeneracy started while Quakers was stating his case in opposition to point B:


But yeah, the MRAs are the victims in this debate.

You giveth with one hand and taketh with the other. You criticize Quackers for doing it (rightly, because he did) but then in the very next breath you imply that everyone who disagrees with you is an "MRA" that is playing the victimization role. Your name calling may be slightly more sophisticated than calling people "********'s" but it's the same sentiment.

 

[JollyRoger]

Where did I call everyone who disagrees with an MRA?

 

[Wolfbeckett]

It was implied when you said:

But yeah, the MRAs are the victims in this debate.

This wording comes across as "everyone on the other side of the debate are claiming victimization". Maybe you didn't mean it that way, if you say otherwise I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but on first read it definitely seems like it's intended as a slight against everyone on the other side.

 

[JollyRoger]

MRAs are generally distinguishable from others on that side of the debate by the endless supply of victim cards MRAs seem to carry in their deck.

 

[Senethro]

Definition of Nazi



I am certain you understand the distinction between definitions 1 and 3 above. Deliberately misrepresenting them qualifies as a strawman argument.

I know the difference and definition 3 is stupid, and so are people who think proponents of a tobacco ban are comparable to nazis. Its not a term to be cheapened.

So here is the problem. If you support the movement, you are subject to bait and switch. They present you with a certain set of values which you support. They are really supporting a completely different set of values.

Quackers, for example, supports A, but not B.

If you oppose the movement, you are subject to a strawman argument. So the same example, Quackers opposes B, so we pound him into the dirt for opposing A.

So the backlash against feminism is not against a woman's right to control her own destiny, or her right to participate in the political process or hold political office or participate in the marketplace or workforce - it is against speech control and thought control.

And this is itself a strawman argument. Anti-feminists range from strong proponents of the status quo to right out there MRA nutjobs trying to roll back womens rights, but the status quo guys look at "equal" opportunities producing unequal outcomes and say: This is what women want. It is a product of their biology, their psychology, our evolutionary past. They should be tougher pay negotiators if they want equal pay, they should report crimes and have faith in the current law etc. You describe confronting this as "thought control", sinister and far from neutral.

 

[bhsup]

Did some due diligence for Warpus. All posts in the entire forum with the word ******** within the last six calender months. Given the context of all of them, I am calling this myth busted, at least as far as recent usage is concerned. It's spoilered because it's long.

Spoiler :

wild speculation: they had sex with the black dude because... (insert ******** sexist racist stereotype here)

seriously, i think the nurses are now blaming the hospital for not educating them on ebola. which is freeaaking weird too. do texan hospitals have no hygiene standards?!?!

If anything, a good bollocking from The ******** Ubermistress will put them more in need of testosterone-heavy power-fantasies. I wouldn't be surprised if the so-called "Ms Sarkeesian" was an elaborate hoax designed to sell more copies of Masculinity Simulator 3.

I think CFC needs a lot more discussion on this subject, given how quiet people most people are and given the attitude among quite a few of those who aren't.

Getting back to the OP, Feminists like Anita Sarkeesian are hurting the community they are a part of, when they claim to be helping. She takes the hate that any politicized figure would get on the internet and uses it to concoct straw men of her legitimate opponents. And she is fantastic at it. Nobody talks about the rebuttals that well articulated people offer to her, they only talk about the threats and trolling she gets. Again, there are thousands of figures who are controversial in some way that they receive massive hate and plenty of threats.

The fact is, trolls and flamers will use whatever is available to get at you, and if they can call you a ******** and tell you to go make a sandwich, they will do it. If they can call you a neckbeard and tell you to check your privilege to get at you, they'll do that. The internet and the gaming world would be great without all the mean-spiritedness, but don't pigeon-hole the issue as a misogyny problem when everybody can be a victim.

Rape ratings can't really be compared without qualitative analysis of individual states' laws. Fx I'm not sure Swedes are more prone to rape than other nationalities (even if there's a Viking joke in there somewhere) I think it has more to do with Sweden's particularly sensitive relationship to gender politics. Many new Swedish policies and laws concern themselves heavily with gender and race. It is why they're both considered a progressive bastion and a '********' regime by different viewpoints. And sometimes their particular articulations of laws make it so that a comparatively large population segment are rapists that wouldn't be in other countries. I once looked over one of those international rape statistics and I'm not infering anything about the US here, but several developing nations have extremely good rape stats compared to the evil raping nation of Sweden; perhaps in those situations one might consider what constitutes rape in Sweden compared to say Egypt where marital rape isn't A Thing at all.

EDIT: Just wanted to put it out there. It's much easier to compare gun crime between states because then there's usually a shot wound or a dead person. Rape is a whole mishmash of statistical issues because consent is so damn hard to legally supervise.

Men are better at literally everything. Anyone who says differently is an evil bigoted ********.

UNITED QUEENDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND

SPECTA TUAM VACTIONEM



Government: Absolute Monarchical ******** Hellhole

Leader: Queen Elizabeth III and Queen Consort Victoria II

Description: The North Korea to France's China, these girls are completely insane. Implementing policies such as sperm harvesting, natinoal castration day and other horrifying things glorious methods to remove patriarchy, the UQ is here to spread the message of feminism worldwide.

France + United Queendom + Indonesia = REMOVE PATRIARCHY

Embargoing the Thailand Mandogs

(OOC: I'm fairly sure that my nation will be fairly stat-wise so I won't upset the balance of power worldwide too much. Hopefully. )

With apologies to Omega, Thor and Rebecca Cohen.

<<< bhsup note: snipped the crap out of this. It's from a write your own story and it's long as hell. Just left paragraph with word ********. >>>

****************​

Ex-******** Revolutionary Marie Cohen (no relation to the disgusting gender-traitor or the mandog musician) walked through the base. It used to be an Islamist terrorist base and many still believed it was. However, the Islamists in this region had seen the truth of They Who Have Risen, just as she and her squad had. It pained Rebecca to work alongside these chauvinistic pigs, but both she and the rest of those who had seen the light had learned to put such petty prejudices behind them. However, Rebecca still believed that she and her squad were much better than any of these mandog ex-Islamists. Like all men, they were violent one-dimensional beings who could not control their emotions. However, if pointed in the right direction they could be useful. They Who Have Risen had given her the tools and authority necessary to control the direction they moved in. Today some of them had gone off course, she was here to correct that.

<<< bhsup note: more snippage >>>

<<< bhsup note: Another write your own story. Again, massive irrelevant snippage >>>

&#8220;As you have probably already worked out, we are the Wordsmiths.&#8221; said Joan. &#8220;The group started in&#8230;Babylonia, I think?&#8221;

&#8220;Near Babylonia,&#8221; corrected Rene &#8220;It was actually closer to the Mesopotamian&#8230;&#8221;

&#8220;That&#8217;s not really important,&#8221; interrupted Joan &#8220;What is important is that we&#8217;ve been around a long time, pretty much since the beginning of writing. In the past we were larger than this, but we never really recovered from when the Nazis destroyed the Eighth Order in the forties. When I discovered them in France, there was pretty much nothing left.&#8221;

&#8220;You went to France!?&#8221; said John in disbelief.

&#8220;Hey,&#8221; said Joan &#8220;This was before the ******** crisis. Urgh, I hate what those connards did to that country.&#8221;

And it needs to happen again. It might actually do it. Quackers asks in his thread, ''What is MRA?''

Well, if I take Cheesy/TF/etc on his definition, then MRA is an extension of the fight against patriarchy. Or it's trying to be. It starts from a different place than feminism did, it has the baggage of history to shake off as the very people its probable winning tenants are in conflict with attract to its banner. But, you can't get past ''women should be on the home with the kids,'' with a system that is so grudging to put them in the home with fathers. You can't move past a society that trivializes rape when it's the butt of jokes as being part of the assumed punishment in PYITA prisons.

Why is it expressed as a counter-reaction to feminism? I don't know. Maybe the radical neckbeards have too much of a current voice. Possibly because of the chorus of feminists(and feminist-allies) that are more than eager to saturate the entire idea with course jeers of ''********misogyny! How can patriarchy disadvantage men when the issues that face women are so much more dire?'' Well, they're right, it does. But that's a stupid way to fight patriarchy. It's like ignoring the economics of racism in favor of belittling all efforts that aren't to do with criminal justice.

But, this might not be compelling. It's probably too much fun to be Rush Limbaugh.

 

[Harv]

Quakerism is a bit confusing to me:

Okay. I will try to explain Quakerism to you.

noun 1. the beliefs, principles, and practices of Quakers.

noun
1. a popular name for a member of the Religious Society of Friends.

Are you less confused yet?

 

[NovaKart]

I'm not opposed to some of feminism's core tenants. I think women should be be in full control of their own destiny and be able to live their lives in however way they see fit, (obvious caveat for not infringing upon the liberty of others). So that's where Quackerism and feminism intersect, whether i approve of their lifestyle is different. I will tolerate them.

The problem are some of the ludicrous theories the ********s have. Take the hysteria over "rape culture". Sorry, rape culture doesn't exist and no matter how much you say it, it isn't going too. Also, i believe this rape culture testicles has scared university authorities in the states to really stack the books against people who have been accused of rape. My flabber was utterly gasted when i heard the university deals with cases of rape on campus, but that isn't the fault of feminists.

This has led to the affirmative consent rule which has been adopted by universities and is now the law for universities receiving state funding to have in California. It means the standard has been changed from no means no to yes means yes. It's a bit confusing what that actually means but it seems like from the editorials I've read about it, that silence or lack of resistance is not sufficient to claim that a woman wasn't raped. Instead, not saying yes means she was raped. Proponents of the law say that the consent doesn't have to be verbal but it does seem like it's creating a more ambiguous idea of what constitutes rape, especially since the affirmative consent has to be maintained the entire time. It may lead to a situation where a woman affirmatively consented to starting sex but then later said she withdrew her consent without making that clear except for the absence of not saying yes either verbally or non-verbally.

 

[Harv]

And this is itself a strawman argument. Anti-feminists range from strong proponents of the status quo to right out there MRA nutjobs trying to roll back womens rights, but the status quo guys look at "equal" opportunities producing unequal outcomes and say: This is what women want. It is a product of their biology, their psychology, our evolutionary past. They should be tougher pay negotiators if they want equal pay, they should report crimes and have faith in the current law etc. You describe confronting this as "thought control", sinister and far from neutral.

Okay. I was trying to say:

The reason why many men and women alike cannot support feminism is because there is a disparity between what feminists claim they represent and what they actually do.

I thought I was pretty clear. You misrepresented what I was trying to say confronting "MRA nutjobs trying to roll back womens rights" is equal to "thought control." This is, once again, a strawman argument.

I found this article.

 

[warpus]

bhsup, way to go. I don't have to pay you now, do I??

 

[Senethro]

Okay. I was trying to say:



I thought I was pretty clear. You misrepresented what I was trying to say confronting "MRA nutjobs trying to roll back womens rights" is equal to "thought control." This is, once again, a strawman argument.

I found this article.

Ok, you win. I can't follow your points or gauge your sincerity.

Complaining about strawmen while apparently deliberately making your own and linking an article built out of the mowings of many hectares leaves me confused.

If you largely agree with that article then you are yourself one of the reactionary status quo proponents who mistakenly thinks that "equal" laws will produce equal results in a society that has been historically sexist.

That said, claiming feminism has ulterior sinister goals that its supposed actions match more closely than its stated intent is definitely into nutjob territory.

 

[bhsup]

bhsup, way to go. I don't have to pay you now, do I??

Just mail me a jar of mayonnaise and we're square.

 

[jackelgull]

I am sorry for not posting the specific quotes, I did not want to put anybody on the spot. I did not intend to be a douche.

 

[Borachio]

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself. If you've an issue to raise, I think you should raise it.

I think it's interesting that only 9 10 posts in the last 6 months feature the word ********.

 

[jackelgull]

Yes, but not all posts that are against feminism in any of its forms use the term. But I agree that it is an interesting statistic.

 

[warpus]

No worries, but you're not getting any mayo from me.

To get on topic, I really do think those who call feminists "********s" are extremists. And I'm sure those who call all men's rights activists bad names, are extremists too.

No more to see here than mud being slung from one extremist camp to the other, and back.

I also however think that some people might be disillusioned with feminism, due to its sort of horrible or non-existant PR. I only ever hear bad things about feminists, for example. But still, to equate them all to nazis is a bit.. well, extremist. But I doubt you'll get anywhere by talking to people who use language like that - it's sensationalist and hyperbolic by design, so their opinions on the subject might very well be much of the same.

 

[JollyRoger]

Should we be using the term Masculinazis instead of MRAs?