What is with the backlash against feminism?

[Yoda Power]

I think that trying to explain people's opinions by inner motives is a dangerous thing since you're not in a position to know how they actually feel.

It's also sort of an elitists approach to say: "You only mean that because you haven't reflected upon the subject."

 

[Mise]

I think that trying to explain people's opinions by inner motives is a dangerous thing since you're not in a position to know how they actually feel.

It's also sort of an elitists approach to say: "You only mean that because you haven't reflected upon the subject."

It might be dangerous and it might be elitist, but it might also be true.

EDIT: To be clear, I don't think we should go around saying "you only mean that because you haven't reflected on the subject" to everyone who criticises you. I'm only saying so in this specific thread because this specific thread specifically asked whether there were underlying motivations beneath the surface of anti-feminism that might explain the backlash.

 

[Smote]

This might have something to do with it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy

The gamergate group of trolls and other internet extremists have recently targeted Anita Sarkeesian, who is a feminist critic of video games. They've been spreading a lot of hate lately.

 

[timtofly]

There is always a backlash when tolerance changes to tyranny.

 

[Light Cleric]

Probably a mix of people not really understanding what feminism actually is(maybe you could argue they don't want to but as yoda said above I am always hesitant to assume people's inner motives), people talking past each other and quite frankly a lot of douchebaggery.

The last "feminism" related thread I posted in pretty much convinced me not to waste my time posting in many serious threads in CFC OT. If your post can't be distorted or easily lumped in with others, it's usually gonna be ignored or someone will make an attempt to attack it and just embarrass themselves. There's no point in arguing with people who take their ball and go home as soon, yelling childish insults along the way, as soon as you challenge them on things like "does this actually work?" or "is the whole event this thread about a hoax?", which seemed to me pretty reasonable questions to ask. Taking about 4-5 insults or blatantly dishonest attacks for every 1 actual decent post is not worth the effort.

 

[Mise]

Just for the avoidance of doubt, I don't think we should go around saying "you only mean that because you haven't reflected on the subject" to everyone who criticises you. I'm only saying so in this specific thread because this specific thread specifically asked whether there were underlying motivations beneath the surface of anti-feminism that might explain the backlash.

 

[warpus]

Is there really an anti-feminist backlash happening though? Or is it just a bunch of random people having an issue with the movement, or perhaps extremist parts of the movement?

Oftentimes with things like this it's extremists from one side flinging poo at extremists from the other, the moderates stuck in the middle wondering what the hell is going on.

I have seem some backlash to extremist types of feminism online, but nothing against the movement as a whole. Most people seem to be supportive of equal rights for the genders. That's why I keep asking OP to deliver. He wants us to talk about this, and he starts off the thread pointing out that "some people said this or that", but then he won't even post it. Do I really have to read the entire other thread to figure out the context for all this? Just because OP is lazy?

 

[Borachio]

Which other thread is being referenced here? I'm not proud, I'd read it.

 

[Senethro]

I thought there was some forum rule against discussing people who aren't in a thread.

 

[Borachio]

I can't see why you couldn't discuss an opinion that has been expressed by someone not in a thread.

Or what else could you discuss? You couldn't discuss Nazism, for instance.

 

[warpus]

I suppose so, but then to start a thread with "CERTAIN people said this, let's talk about it" seems douchy, especially if we're not allowed to name those certain people or even see what the hell they said to begin with.

So then we all have to guess what was meant and what these people might mean. How is that going to lead to a good conversation about the subject?

 

[classical_hero]

The reason why modern feminism has such a bad name is the fact all the objectives of Feminism has been met an yet they are still fighting for a cause they say hasn't been finished. Quite frankly it has turned from getting respected into man hared.

 

[Senethro]

Ah, its Captain One-Line. A man who thinks women were made out of a rib come to tell us the facts about the world, but rarely to post more than once per thread.

 

[Borachio]

I suppose so, but then to start a thread with "CERTAIN people said this, let's talk about it" seems douchy, especially if we're not allowed to name those certain people or even see what the hell they said to begin with.

So then we all have to guess what was meant and what these people might mean. How is that going to lead to a good conversation about the subject?

I agree. It likely it isn't.

I fancy this is a toxic topic anyway.

And what's needed now is for an anti-feminist to make an appearance.

edit: Ah. Here's one.

 

[crabapple]

The backlash is mostly internet based. Internet, especially computer games has seen as MRAs an other misogynist men as their domain. But nowadays women gets more and more into internet and computer games, and they see what a misogynist world it is, and criticize it. Which is not something misogynists like, so they attack.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

I don't think there really is a backlash against feminism, short of a few of the more... out there elements of the board. I would venture to say that the vast majority of the people on this board believe in equal rights for all people regardless of gender.

There is a backlash against a certain segment of the feminist movement, however. There is an element of the movement that wants to push the idea that all men are ravening beasts that think with their penises and want to crush women underneath their stern man-feet. They're usually the ones yelling about "the patriarchy". They seem to view men as "the enemy" and use inflammatory language that almost seems to be an attempt to deliberately provoke a reaction.

Somebody earlier in the thread mentioned Anita Sarkeesian, so let's use her as an example here. Nobody (at least nobody who isn't trolling) criticizes Anita for being a feminist. The reason so many gamers have a problem with her isn't the fact that she's a woman, it's not even the fact that she's a feminist. It's because she deliberately misrepresents games and says things that are blatantly untrue about them to push her ideological agenda. Then, when people accuse her of doing that, she tries to shut down the conversation by saying that they're persecuting her for her gender. You see it time and again, any and every criticism leveled against her, no matter how valid is labelled as misogyny, if not by her, then by her legion of defenders. I think being against that kind of behavior is very valid.

People on both sides need to remember, though, that it's easy to accidentally get the false impression that the other side are a bunch of raving lunatics. Unfortunately, it's just as true on the topic of feminism as it is in politics, religion, or any other area of controversy: the craziest people on both sides are usually the ones yelling the loudest, which makes it easy to forget that the crazies are the minority. When all you ever see is "OMG THE PATRIARCHY OPPRESSION MISOGYNY" you forget that most feminists are perfectly rational and just want equality. Conversely, if all you hear is "OMG MEN'S RIGHTS ********" it's easy to forget that most dudes are perfectly happy to support equality. So I don't think that on the whole it's fair to say there's a "backlash against feminism". There's backlash on both sides against the crazies that are screaming from the other side, but that's not where most people are at.

 

[Quackers]

I'm not opposed to some of feminism's core tenants. I think women should be be in full control of their own destiny and be able to live their lives in however way they see fit, (obvious caveat for not infringing upon the liberty of others). So that's where Quackerism and feminism intersect, whether i approve of their lifestyle is different. I will tolerate them.

The problem are some of the ludicrous theories the ********s have. Take the hysteria over "rape culture". Sorry, rape culture doesn't exist and no matter how much you say it, it isn't going too. Also, i believe this rape culture testicles has scared university authorities in the states to really stack the books against people who have been accused of rape. My flabber was utterly gasted when i heard the university deals with cases of rape on campus, but that isn't the fault of feminists.

 

[Senethro]

Quackers, do you think that comparing advocates for womens equality to fascists that did genocide to the tune of 6 million dead is reasonable/helpful?

Also, given Rotherham and the repeated coming to light of male celebrities having gotten away with rapes for decades, does it not look like there is a culture of silence, disbelief and looking the other way with regard to rape?

 

[JollyRoger]

The problem are some of the ludicrous theories the ********s have. Take the hysteria over "rape culture". Sorry, rape culture doesn't exist and no matter how much you say it, it isn't going too. Also, i believe this rape culture testicles has scared university authorities in the states to really stack the books against people who have been accused of rape. My flabber was utterly gasted when i heard the university deals with cases of rape on campus, but that isn't the fault of feminists.

Quakerism is a bit confusing to me:

What needs to be noted is that these crimes were played down and ignored because of a politically correct culture which found such things extremely uncomfortable to deal with.

 

[Harv]

Quackers, do you think that comparing advocates for womens equality to fascists that did genocide to the tune of 6 million dead is reasonable/helpful?

Definition of Nazi

noun, plural Nazis.
1. a member of the National Socialist German Workers' party of Germany, which in 1933, under Adolf Hitler, seized political control of the country, suppressing all opposition and establishing a dictatorship over all cultural, economic, and political activities of the people, and promulgated belief in the supremacy of Hitler as Führer, aggressive anti-Semitism, the natural supremacy of the German people, and the establishment of Germany by superior force as a dominant world power. The party was officially abolished in 1945 at the conclusion of World War II.
2. (often lowercase) a person elsewhere who holds similar views.

3. Sometimes Offensive. (often lowercase) a person who is fanatically dedicated to or seeks to control a specified activity, practice, etc.:
a jazz nazi who disdains other forms of music; tobacco nazis trying to ban smoking."

I am certain you understand the distinction between definitions 1 and 3 above. Deliberately misrepresenting them qualifies as a strawman argument.

I'm not opposed to some of feminism's core tenants.

So here is the problem. If you support the movement, you are subject to bait and switch. They present you with a certain set of values which you support. They are really supporting a completely different set of values.

Quackers, for example, supports A, but not B.

If you oppose the movement, you are subject to a strawman argument. So the same example, Quackers opposes B, so we pound him into the dirt for opposing A.

So the backlash against feminism is not against a woman's right to control her own destiny, or her right to participate in the political process or hold political office or participate in the marketplace or workforce - it is against speech control and thought control.

Instead of having an honest and civilized discussion about the issue, it quickly degenerates into name-calling and mudslinging.