What is your understanding of Satan?

[Che Guava]

my understnading with satan is that he leaves me to my business and I don't interfere with his....

oh wait, now I get the topic.

um, no comment.

 

[Eukaryote]

Satan is everyone that believes in Satan.

If you believe that then you believe in satan so you would be satan too!

 

[Sidhe]

IIRC, the Satan of the Book of Job was doing G-d's bidding in tempting Job, so he wasn't necessarily evil.

Actually it's a bit more complicated, God notices Satan's presence and asks him to look at Job, a perfect example of a good and faithful man. Satan says yes but see how you put up walls around him, is he not blessed,remove your protection and let me tempt him so that we can see his worth. So technically it's Satan who asks permission of God which is admittedly similar but he does not tempt Job at God's bidding directly.

Anyway in the Bible I think Satan is much like the Satan in Islam, his job is to tempt and to corrupt and he is very much a servant of God in all things. In fact he serves as an example.

This explains why Satan is really more of a servant of God than a director of evil. To be honest Islam's and Christianity's versions are remarkably similar

This is humorous but it makes the point rather well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_pSaMPzjOc&mode=related&search=

Anyway I'm agnostic, I'm really only speaking from my own views on the texts meaning, rather than any real belief.

 

[Stacmon]

So since we all sin, the Islamic god believes we are all evil and was surprised by it?

I think I wasn't completely clear. I'm not saying that God believes that we're all sinners, there's certainly no concept of Original Sin in Islam, the way that there is in Christianity.

Instead I was simply saying that the people who may be tempted by Satan to blaspheme, disbelieve, be corrupt, and so on, would do so with or without Satan's "help."

Surely people make mistakes, they may miss prayer, do something improper, fail to fulfill certain requirements, but God is understood to be Merciful and Forgiving and accepts sincere repentance.

Also, when you said "the Islamic god" (also spelling god with a small "g") it suggests you think that Muslims worship a different God. Muslims would argue that this isn't the case. They believe in all of the Hebrew prophets as well as Jesus (pbut), and worship the same God that Jews and Christians do. This is why Arab Jews and Christians refer to God when they worship him as "Allah," just as the Muslims do.

Even if you don't believe in the religion of Islam or the prophet Muhammad (pbuh), you should at worst consider Muslims to be "misled" or "misinformed" rather than suggesting that they worship a totally different God.

Our God is the God of Abraham, the God of Israel and the God of Ishmael.

If you want to refer to the Muslim understanding of God, then you can say it that way, or say the "Islamic conception of God."

 

[CartesianFart]

Anyway in the Bible I think Satan is much like the Satan in Islam, his job is to tempt and to corrupt and he is very much a servant of God in all things. In fact he serves as an example.

Maybe this symbolic bogeyman named Satan which the meaning is fixed by instructions by historical texts(old-testament,New testaments and maybe the Koran) that make people not lead astray from religious indoctrination.

Maybe Satan is merely a simple common-sense of reason to corrupt the souls of faithful followers of religion itself by extracting sense instead of some abstraction of our place in the world.

Of course we can't be too foolhardy on enslaving ourselves by senses alone but must use some degree of moderation of abstract reasoning to be more of a hedonistic calculator.

 

[Sidhe]

Maybe this symbolic bogeyman named Satan which the meaning is fixed by instructions by historical texts(old-testament,New testaments and maybe the Koran) that make people not lead astray from religious indoctrination.

Maybe Satan is merely a simple common-sense of reason to corrupt the souls of faithful followers of religion itself by extracting sense instead of some abstraction of our place in the world.

That's precisely what I think. Without Satan the Bible would lose much of it's punch or meaning, for a protagonist needs an antagonist. However should the faithful think that Satan has too much power, he's cleverly instituted as very much servile and less powerful than God.

Of course we can't be too foolhardy on enslaving ourselves by senses alone but must use some degree of moderation of abstract reasoning to be more of a hedonistic calculator.

You can of course have your own version of Satan without religion. It's essentially of course an outward manifestation of man kinds natural inclination to be tempted or hedonistic. But let's not get into a discussion on moral temptation.

Still his existence is if nothing else is an example of how sophisticated philosophically people were in ancient times.

 

[El_Machinae]

Also, when you said "the Islamic god" (also spelling god with a small "g") it suggests you think that Muslims worship a different God.

Using the small 'g' is grammatically appropriate when you're discussing a religion's god. God (with a big 'G') is a proper name, and deserves to be capitalised, when referring to a god a small g is appropriate. "Islamic god" is correct, because "Roman god" is also correct. For the same reasons, "Ares" is capitalised along with "Allah".

Out of reverence, people capitised words like "Him" or "His" when using impersonal pronouns of God. For example, your capitalising of "God" as the last quoted word above is not grammatically correct, however it is understood to be a sign of reverence. Certainly accepted in modern society.

 

[Stacmon]

The way that I see it, if someone believes that Satan is the Evil equivalent of (Good) God and that Satan can do whatever he wants to, they're basically polytheistic in their belief and setting up Satan as a partner to God.

They're basically saying that the two of them are equal because God doesn't have absolute control over everything (which would include everything that Satan does).

What do the rest of you think?

(Also, Eran - or other Mormons out there, you mentioned earlier that the LDS believe that Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit are distinct beings, does this also apply to Satan in the way I've described above, or is he subservient and under the control of God?)

 

[CartesianFart]

That's precisely what I think. Without Satan the Bible would lose much of it's punch or meaning, for a protagonist needs an antagonist. However should the faithful think that Satan has too much power, he's cleverly instituted as very much servile and less powerful than God.

Like in all narrative writings as you said...It need the battle of protagonist vs. antagonist.

Protagonist is for the sufferings of the meeks,disabled,poor destitutes.

Antagonists is for the winners of nobility and warlords.

You can of course have your own version of Satan without religion. It's essentially of course an outward manifestation of man kinds natural inclination to be tempted or hedonistic. But let's not get into a discussion on moral temptation.

Satan as being an evil consequence for practical purpose.

 

[Irish Caesar]

Satan is a jerk. He's less powerful than God, but he isn't restricted to what God "allows" him to do; he has free will like every other angel and human. Because he came out on the losing end of an "argument" with God, he chooses to take his revenge by tormenting God's creation.

It would be like if you got into an argument with your big strong neighbor and since you knew you couldn't beat him in a fight, you kick his dog every time you get the chance.

 

[Stacmon]

Using the small 'g' is grammatically appropriate when you're discussing a religion's god. God (with a big 'G') is a proper name, and deserves to be capitalised, when referring to a god a small g is appropriate. "Islamic god" is correct, because "Roman god" is also correct. For the same reasons, "Ares" is capitalised along with "Allah".

Out of reverence, people capitised words like "Him" or "His" when using impersonal pronouns of God. For example, your capitalising of "God" as the last quoted word above is not grammatically correct, however it is understood to be a sign of reverence. Certainly accepted in modern society.

I agree that small "g" is appropriate when referring to deities, like Roman or Greek gods.

I was simply pointing out that saying "Islamic conception of God" (ie: The God) instead of "Islamic god" is more accurate, because a person can think that Muslims are misled in how they should worship God, but it shouldn't be suggested that "their god" is different from The God, which was the difference I was trying to stress .

 

[Eukaryote]

Satan is a jerk. He's less powerful than God, but he isn't restricted to what God "allows" him to do; he has free will like every other angel and human. Because he came out on the losing end of an "argument" with God, he chooses to take his revenge by tormenting God's creation.

It would be like if you got into an argument with your big strong neighbor and since you knew you couldn't beat him in a fight, you kick his dog every time you get the chance.

Agreed 100%. I didn't believe that before but now I do. That was a funny way of explianing it too.

 

[Irish Caesar]

Agreed 100%. I didn't believe that before but now I do. That was a funny way of explianing it too.

I think I'm kinda worried about the state of the world as we know it if Irish Caesar has become a respected theologian...



But credit to Dante and Milton for influencing the world's interpretation of Satan. If he was as powerful as God, he wouldn't have gotten booted from Heaven in the first place, and to have him doing God's dirty work while God remains as the good guy, well, that's rather perverse, to understate it.

So I conclude that he acted alone, there was no grassy knoll, and he likes to take cheap shots because it's all he's left with.

 

[Maimonides]

I just added the Islamic conception of Satan/Iblis to my original post.

Thanks for that & subsequent info on Islam. I've learned allot about Islam & the Koran from your posts in this thread. I've read the Koran, but it was years ago.

You'll note that it is quite different from the Christian concept, and that people don't escape blame by claiming "the Devil made me do it."

Basically, it is never acceptable in Islam to say "the Devil made me do it." To go into rehab for 3 weeks and to come out a "new person" - Ted Haggard!

That excuse has always annoyed me greatly. On the other hand, it annoys me when somebody commits a heinous crime & starts talking about how Jesus has forgiven them. The prisons are full of these guys.

What i understand about satan was that he was made to compel people into not sinning and follow religious laws in the early days of christianity and judaism.

Maybe this symbolic bogeyman named Satan which the meaning is fixed by instructions by historical texts(old-testament,New testaments and maybe the Koran) that make people not lead astray from religious indoctrination.

Very little is known about the early days of Judaism. IIRC, Satan isn't mentioned in the Torah/Old Testament until at least Exodus.

Satan isn't used to compel people to follow religious laws at all in Judaism.

I've never really understood Satan's role in Christianity except as an antagonist as has been mentioned earlier in this thread.

But then again i dont think satan was in original judiasm was he? Must be a creation of christianity otherwise.

Satan definitely appears in pre-Christian Judaism. He is a major character in the Book of Job &, IIRC, Jews believe he was the Angel of Death in the Exodus story. Satan became very different in Christian tradition, though. He's not a horned devil ruling a fiery underworld in Judaism.

Actually it's a bit more complicated, God notices Satan's presence and asks him to look at Job, a perfect example of a good and faithful man. Satan says yes but see how you put up walls around him, is he not blessed,remove your protection and let me tempt him so that we can see his worth. So technically it's Satan who asks permission of God which is admittedly similar but he does not tempt Job at God's bidding directly.

Thanks for the reminder. It has been too long since I read the Book of Job.

The way that I see it, if someone believes that Satan is the Evil equivalent of (Good) God and that Satan can do whatever he wants to, they're basically polytheistic in their belief and setting up Satan as a partner to God.

They're basically saying that the two of them are equal because God doesn't have absolute control over everything (which would include everything that Satan does).

What do the rest of you think?

I agree. That view is definitely polytheism.

 

[Nylan]

Satan, who is a fallen being once sharing the same status as ourselves, has free will but is limited in what he can do by God in the wise that God will not let him disrupt his eternal plans for the children of men. Also, Satan has no true power over people. If they let him influence them, then he can control them or influence them to do evil, but he cannot force people to do anything against their will.

He is a necessary evil, for there must be opposition in all things.

 

[aussieboy]

Satan is a fallen angel, who, of his own free will, disobeyed God, and actually has little in the way of power, except that of persuasion, that is, to tempt Man to sin. Man can either choose to follow Satan or reject him, but Satan is nowhere near God in terms of power. His purported powers are but an illusion.

 

[Nylan]

Indeed his powers are miniscule in comparison with the Creator's

 

[Hygro]

Bright day
Where is the option: I believe in God, but Satan does not exist?

seconded.
XCL

 

[scy12]

God of Old testament is a far more evil and a far more interesting mythological creature. Satan's character is unfortunately underdeveloped and simplistic.
Old testament reminds me more of Greek mythology so i like it more. New testament is poor in mythological content.

One of my favorite scenes is when GOD (God of OLD testament) decides to
"test" Abraham by ordering him to sacrifice his child. A scene that is extremely similar to Homer's Iliad where Agamemnon is forced by the Gods to sacrifice his child Iphigenia so the plague may stop. When both men are ready to Kill their child as the sadistic Gods order , a lamb appears and is sacrificed instead.
Agamemnon defied the Gods by insulting a Beggar , so that was his punishment. What did Abraham do ?

Another sadistic act is :
God orders the only Good people of Sodoma and Gomora to escape as the sinner's town would be destroyed. Only they shouldn't look back or else they will die. One of them does. He dies.

 

[Cu Chulainn]

One of my favorite fictional characters. I especially enjoyed Viggo Mortensen's portrayal in The Prophecy.