What makes a Christian a good Christian?

[JollyRoger]

So to be a good Christian, you not only need faith that you are worshipping the correct God, but that you are also following the correct middleman?

 

[Elrohir]

So to be a good Christian, you not only need faith that you are worshipping the correct God, but that you are also following the correct middleman?

They're kind of a package deal.

 

[Moss]

So to be a good Christian, you not only need faith that you are worshipping the correct God, but that you are also following the correct middleman?

If you don't have faith in Christ, you aren't a Christian.

Also, I never really answered the opening post:

I don't think anyone can be a good Christian. A Christian's goal is to be like Christ and Christians (most) believe that becoming like Christ happens through a process of sanctification that involves the Holy Spirit. What part we have in our sanctification and what part is in the control of God is debatable. Although, the things we can do to help become more in touch with our God is prayer, reading the bible, being in fellowship with one another, and yes, showing God's love to other people. Now, how that displays itself in reality can be very different from person to person.

We are all sinners and we are all lacking in one area or another. Sure, there are people called to leadership positions and have the qualities of pastors, elders, deacons, ect... but I don't think you can classify any Christian as better than another, we are all just called to different areas.

 

[Veritass]

But to propose that here is salvation apart from Christ is to render Christianity meaningless. Christ Himself stated that no one could come to the Father but through him. I'm not sure how that translates to a "monopoly on truth." A monopoly on eternal salvation, yes - but truth? There certainly are truths in other scriptures and other beliefs.

But don't you see how incredibly vain this is? Declaring that God -- who made this world among billions of stars in the galaxy, a galaxy among billions of galaxies -- would provide but one way to gain access, and that is through one external vehicle named Jesus?

This is not even to mention that the entire exercise assumes that:

• God is an external being.
• God has a personality and cares about your reunification with Him.
• Salvation is necessary.

People have been seeking the Divine for millenia. Mystics of all faiths, including Christian ones, have opened themselves up and been brushed by the hand of God, and they all struggle mightily to describe what happened in a way that others can understand that which cannot be described. I find it fantastically presumptuous of Christians to limit God in this way.

Christ is my chosen path to God. I also believe that He is the only path to God.

"No one come to the Father save through [Jesus]." As long as we limit our concept of God to "the Father", I guess that Jesus is an acceptable path.

As Eran stated, though, that does not necessarily preclude the later reunification of non-believers with God - just that any salvation, now or later, must come through Christ.

Then I guess I'll choose a belief system where I don't need saving.

Back to the OT: Would not a "good Christian" be one that emulates Christ in order to have an ongoing, personal relationship with the Divine?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Regardless of wthere Christians "assume" that their doctrine is correct or not, (and certainly regardless of whether thinking that you are right about what you believe is a distinctly Christian thing or not) I still don't see what is so unreasonable about thinking your beliefs are correct. Why would God need to come up with a billion ways to be saved if one works?

 

[JollyRoger]

Why would God need to come up with a billion ways to be saved if one works?

Why would he change methods? Was the first method not working?

 

[El_Machinae]

To comment on the last page (or the last few posts, Erik ), according to my understanding of Christianity, Christ isn't the only route to God. One can partake of all the blood rituals and atonement rituals available to the pre-Christ peoples in order to wash away the sins. It's what the early priesthood was mostly for.

So, a person can endeavour to be as non-sinning as possible and then use the priests to wash away any resulting sins.

The other option is to rely on Christ's forgiveness and sacrifice, but that route could be just as hard as seen by Jesus's comments about how he won't accept all who ask.

 

[MobBoss]

To comment on the last page (or the last few posts, Erik ), according to my understanding of Christianity, Christ isn't the only route to God. One can partake of all the blood rituals and atonement rituals available to the pre-Christ people's in order to wash away the sins. It's what the early priesthood was mostly for.

No, they cant because the old covenant was done away with and replaced with the one Jesus brought forth. You essentially call Jesus Christ a liar here.

I really wish athiests would stop telling biblical lies and giving people very incorrect biblical advice.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

I really wish athiests would stop telling biblical lies and giving people very incorrect biblical advice.

I wish you'd stop calling people liars when they prefix their post with "according to my understanding".

And I intend to make a longer post and reply to more stuff here just as soon as I can focus a bit better.

 

[El_Machinae]

No, they cant because the old covenant was done away with and replaced with the one Jesus brought forth. You essentially call Jesus Christ a liar here.

I guess Paul did too. It's sometimes hard to reconcile the scripture given by Paul and the quotations attributed to Jesus. Throw in the fact that people want to integrate the opinions of unknown authors, and it can sometimes be a mess.

I really wish athiests would stop telling biblical lies and giving people very incorrect biblical advice.

I am recounting the theology I am familiar with. And I am certainly not giving anyone biblical advice in this thread.

 

[raketooy]

Cannot Christ be your chosen path to God and heaven?

As soon as you declare it to be the one and only path to God and heaven, you at least marginalize a huge portion of the world's population, if not damn them to Hell outright.

I'm not sure if I am a Christian or not, but I do believe that if Christ is someone's way to God and heaven, it need not be everyone's way. I do believe in God, but a part of me is agnostic, and religion doesn't really affect the way I live so maybe I am not a true Christian.

 

[JollyRoger]

I really wish athiests would stop telling biblical lies and giving people very incorrect biblical advice.

Same goes for Christians.

 

[Bill3000]

Erik - very good post, but I didn't see anything specific on social justice, such as taking care of the poor. Isn't that necessary as well? Maybe implicitly you said it, but I didn't see anything explicit.

To comment on the last page (or the last few posts, Erik ), according to my understanding of Christianity, Christ isn't the only route to God. One can partake of all the blood rituals and atonement rituals available to the pre-Christ peoples in order to wash away the sins. It's what the early priesthood was mostly for.

That's only for the Jews. The gentiles had the Noahide laws.

 

[MobBoss]

I wish you'd stop calling people liars when they prefix their post with "according to my understanding".

My statement was intentionally broad so that it would include far more than the poster I replied to. I find it a common error among atheists that their 'understanding' of biblical principle and teaching has little or nothing to do with the actual principles and teachings of the bible.

 

[FriendlyFire]

No, they cant because the old covenant was done away with and replaced with the one Jesus brought forth. You essentially call Jesus Christ a liar here.

I really wish athiests would stop telling biblical lies and giving people very incorrect biblical advice.

Any christain with even the most basic understanding of how the new testerment was written, redacted and codified would disagree with you there.

 

[JollyRoger]

My statement was intentionally broad so that it would include far more than the poster I replied to. I find it a common error among atheists that their 'understanding' of biblical principle and teaching has little or nothing to do with the actual principles and teachings of the bible.

You could broaden well beyond atheists if you want to get into common errors among understanding of the teachings of the Bible. I find your statement intentionally narrow.

 

[Elrohir]

But don't you see how incredibly vain this is? Declaring that God -- who made this world among billions of stars in the galaxy, a galaxy among billions of galaxies -- would provide but one way to gain access, and that is through one external vehicle named Jesus?

I think it's pretty vain for you to doubt the Will of the Almighty.

If this sounds arrogant to you, then, well, sorry. But I think it'd be even more arrogant for me to say, in effect, "Yeah God, I get what you're saying: Jesus is the only way to you. But that doesn't sound like a good idea to me, so I'm just going to pretend you didn't say it, m'kay?" What kind of person would I be if I ignored what I believe to be a message from Almighty God - because some guy on the internet thought it was kind of arrogant?

This is not even to mention that the entire exercise assumes that:

• God is an external being.
• God has a personality and cares about your reunification with Him.
• Salvation is necessary.

Who's assuming anything?

People have been seeking the Divine for millenia. Mystics of all faiths, including Christian ones, have opened themselves up and been brushed by the hand of God, and they all struggle mightily to describe what happened in a way that others can understand that which cannot be described. I find it fantastically presumptuous of Christians to limit God in this way.

Christianity cannot, and should not try to limit God. People often try to 'box' Him in so that our petty minds than understand him, but that's not the way it works. What's ironic about this, is that you're doing exactly the same thing - only instead of placing God in the box marked "Sunday mornings" or "Private life" you've placed him in the giant box entitled "The Too Big To Know." Because as long as He's too big and too powerful to be "boxed" by Christianity, you don't have to worry about Christian ideas, or ethics, or living a Christian life with all of its hardships and trials. But as soon as you take God out of that box you have to deal with that.

Am I being presumptuous by saying "God has revealed Himself to us, and God made Flesh came to us in the form of Christ Jesus"? Perhaps so; I don't know. But I find it interesting that you presume to know that He did not.

So tell me: Which of us is truly limiting God?

"No one come to the Father save through [Jesus]." As long as we limit our concept of God to "the Father", I guess that Jesus is an acceptable path.

God is the Father of us all.

Then I guess I'll choose a belief system where I don't need saving.

So you're saying you're perfect as you are? Not on blemish, one moral flaw in your entire life? You must be a joy to live with.

Back to the OT: Would not a "good Christian" be one that emulates Christ in order to have an ongoing, personal relationship with the Divine?

Yep.

 

[El_Machinae]

That's only for the Jews. The gentiles had the Noahide laws.

Well, there are (allegedly) blood rituals before the Jews, too.

Of course, I'm not recommending that anyone partake of the blood rituals in order to appease their gods. I prefer the Christian "be a good person and rely on Jesus to forgive your slips", since it's more sustainable.

 

[scy12]

I have to say that not having MobBoss arrogant attitude certainly helps.

 

[frog3]

If you are a woman you have to submit yourself to your husband to fulfil your Christian duty.

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.