What might define the Intermediate level player?

[plastiqe]

After starting your post like this I was surprised it didn't finish by "we have cake"

Oh. Is that a reference to K-Mod, the best written AI mod ever created for Civ IV of which people say is like playing on a harder difficulty setting and of which I offer cake to those who join the K-Mod Fan Club?

Sometimes it's hard to not write KMODRULES!!!! after ever sentence I type in the Civ IV General Discussion section, but I try. ; )

 

[pomthom]

Oh. Is that a reference to K-Mod, the best written AI mod ever created for Civ IV of which people say is like playing on a harder difficulty setting and of which I offer cake to those who join the K-Mod Fan Club?

Sometimes it's hard to not write KMODRULES!!!! after ever sentence I type in the Civ IV General Discussion section, but I try. ; )

Well I promise I'll try it one day if you promise I do get ma' slice o' cake if I like it

 

[Koszmar]

Maybe...

Novice - Settler, Chieften.

Intermediate - Warlord, Noble.

Advanced - Prince, Monarch.

Expert - Emperor, Immortal.

Master - Deity.

 

[rfcfanatic]

Prince is a truly intermediate level because it's halfway from Settler to Deity. Noble is the most balanced level according to Firaxis. While Noble is 1 level below Prince, Monarch is 1 level above Prince. So I'd say the three intermediate levels are:

Noble
Prince
Monarch

Everything below are beginner levels and everything above are advanced levels.

 

[Olson]

Prince is a truly intermediate level because it's halfway from Settler to Deity. Noble is the most balanced level according to Firaxis. While Noble is 1 level below Prince, Monarch is 1 level above Prince. So I'd say the three intermediate levels are:

Noble
Prince
Monarch

Everything below are beginner levels and everything above are advanced levels.

So an "Intermediate player" might be defined as...one who...?

 

[Seraiel]

If assorting players by difficulty lvl I'd say that everything up to Prince I regard as beginner levels. Monarch is the first lvl where AI starts with Archers, so the levels Monarch to IMM I'd call intermediate, and Deity imho truely deserves its own class in CIV.

I follow that from my own experience, where I was able to beat Prince by only reading the manual. EMP required me to use tactics from this site, and mastering Deity is an ongoing process like being a Professor i. e. also is.

 

[Deckhand]

On non-gaming forums posters tend to define themselves as "beginner", "intermediate", or "advanced" ..., "what might define the 'Intermediate' level player?"

I think as you say, deity is its own class and advanced doesn't describe it. I've been an intermediate skier since my third day skiing am unlikely to become advanced. However I would reserve expert to professionals. So I see four levels

beginner - newbie just learning game: settler/warlord
intermediate - noble/prince/monarch
advanced - emperor/immortal
expert - deity

 

[Fintourist]

Have You ever tried Deity anyway? Noble always war is so far from Deity as Jupiter is from us. When I want Noble/always war challange, I pick huge map with 18 AI and put them ALL in team against me.

Yeah, I have, although I don't really play SP much at all. For me playing against a thinking human is the requirement for making civ really interesting, but that's of course only my personal preference. But back to the point, have you played Deity Always Peace with isolated start? That's so easy that it does not make much sense either..

On the other hand, You are completely right about differences between single player vs multiplayer. Human brain is considered the most complicated organ of known universe. While You may be supreme in empire management in CIV 4, You have no chance against 2 human players deciding to get rid of You. Only way to more or less fair multiplayer is 1 vs 1 or equally numbered teams with balanced map.

Yeah, these subjects are often an issue in FFA-type of games. It's pretty annoying to invest a lot of time into a game, be the clear leader and then just wait when all the other civs ally against you.. This problem can somewhat be tackled, by allowing only AI diplo between players (meaning no emails, chats etc. so that you cannot negotiate, plan attacks together and so on. Btw "declare war to somebody" and some other options do not exist between human players either). This of course creates other meta-gaming type of issues, but makes the game still more enjoyable as dogpiling the leader becomes a lot more difficult.

 

[RD-BH]

Deity ...

The AI cheats.

Take it to the mats.

After Turn 1, open WB. (They get one chance to win ... first shot)

Either place one of your units in each of the AI's cities
... or for satisfaction 'erase' them from existence.

Exit WB.

They exploit me, I exploit them ... EZPZ. (That's why it's called DEITY!)

 

[Olson]

After reading the thread, to date, I think it's fair to say the "Intermediate player" and the 'intermediate level' are often seen as related but that relationship is often one of choice or a degree of progression toward or having the capability, though not necessarily the desire, to become "expert".

For some, perhaps including me, being an "Intermediate player" is the goal, by default, because of the nature of the game and one's natural capabilities or interests.

The only constants in Civ are the mechanics. So, perhaps, an "Intermediate player" is one who's learned those mechanics (or most of them) and plays while applying their knowledge on a fairly effective and relatively consistent basis but not perfectly or consistently throughout the game. They could but don't want to do so.

I don't know. How's that for a possible answer?

 

[Seraiel]

Saying that one could but doesn't want is a mis-conception imo. I like your answer very much, but that part slaps the players in the face that went the long road towards perfecting their game, because it says you could achieve the same, but I say you cannot, you wished you could, but it's impossible. Everybody can work above their level but only for very short amounts of time, being an expert requires to hold that level over a long time and that's what many underestimate.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Saying that one could but doesn't want is a mis-conception imo. I like your answer very much, but that part slaps the players in the face that went the long road towards perfecting their game, because it says you could achieve the same, but I say you cannot, you wished you could, but it's impossible. Everybody can work above their level but only for very short amounts of time, being an expert requires to hold that level over a long time and that's what many underestimate.

No disrespect to you or any other masters of the game, but I disagree.

We're not talking about a twitch or a shooter here, where you have the reflexes and finger dexterity that you have and that's that, we're talking about a strategy game, and a turn base strat at that. If someone has the urge they could in fact save every turn and do all the math required to resolve a best course. In fact that math except for some fine detail that is situational has already been done and can be found on this website. So anyone sufficiently motivated can 'perfect their game' should they choose to do so.

There is just very little incentive to do so in most people's opinions. But for someone, and I submit very nearly anyone, who sees something to get out of it there's no reason to think they couldn't do it.

 

[Seraiel]

We got 2 totally different views there. You judge the ability of every human, I judge the ability of a human in single given his circumstances. For me, someone who doesn't "want" it, "cannot" do it, but that's his matter, maybe he cannot because he doesn't want, maybe he cannot because he doesn't have the time. I don't say he could never even if he wanted to or invested a great part of lifetime, though you know that that'd be true for some people too.

Problem I see with your point of view is, that you don't take time or circumstances into account, in the example you describe, the person wouldn't finish a game in one month, where should he / she get the dedication to play that long, where should he / she even know what to search when he / she doesn't know what to ask.

What you're saying is anybody could do anything given he / she has an internet connection but if that was all that's needed, todays AIs would be a lot better. You totally underestimate the sharp instincts that one develops from great knowledge and huge experience and overestimate pure Math imo. Don't forget that Math helps where there already is knowledge and that Math requires a degree of certainty, and that your player doesn't have.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Well, save every turn and work it out would be pretty extreme...and overkill at a great degree. Just solidly mastering the use of whipping and a good understanding of fail gold would probably put most average players in the 'win occasionally' class on deity. But most players aren't interested in focusing their gameplay on whipping and maximized fail gold.

 

[Seraiel]

You still have very much too learn if you think that winning Deity could be achieved by just 2 things and luck / time . Just 1 greater error like choosing the wrong target for an attack, or choosing the right target at the wrong time is perfectly enough to knock one out Deity. Failgold isn't a substitute for a good economy, it enhances an already good one and is often not the right choice because other things are more important / lack of resource / lack of wonder onesself can build and AI can build in a decent amount of time. Whipping however is quite trivial as it requires mainly the pressing of one button, something a child of 6y could master, a child of that age however will never occasionally win Deity.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Failgold isn't a substitute for a good economy, but most players around here can produce a good economy. So the big economic difference between the rest of us and a deity economy is primarily running failgold...particularly the multiple city national wonder failgold that is almost universally found in deity write-ups.

Choosing the wrong time or target for an attack will knock you out in pretty much any game if you have an appropriate stack for the level of difficulty, so again most players hereabouts will likely be able to pick a good target at a good time. The key difference I see in deity write-ups is the precision timing of the whip for optimal overflow and sustained production...so the attack on the right opponent at the right time can be done with a big enough stack to deal with that level of AI opponent.

I read through deity write ups and that's the big things I see that are different. If I wanted to play a deity game those are the things I would study up on.

 

[Seraiel]

Failgold isn't a substitute for a good economy, but most players around here can produce a good economy. So the big economic difference between the rest of us and a deity economy is primarily running failgold...particularly the multiple city national wonder failgold that is almost universally found in deity write-ups.

Choosing the wrong time or target for an attack will knock you out in pretty much any game if you have an appropriate stack for the level of difficulty, so again most players hereabouts will likely be able to pick a good target at a good time. The key difference I see in deity write-ups is the precision timing of the whip for optimal overflow and sustained production...so the attack on the right opponent at the right time can be done with a big enough stack to deal with that level of AI opponent.

I read through deity write ups and that's the big things I see that are different. If I wanted to play a deity game those are the things I would study up on.

You're intelligent, you should be able to to grasp the few things that are important for whipping in 2 sentences, which are, bigger whips are better, and whips just before growth minimize the time that the city needs to regrow.

And I never used Failgold of national Wonders in any of my HoF #1 rounds.

Now you should be able to win Deity :> .

(You're not ) .

Really, out of niceness: 90% of the players on this site are not able to plan an attack in that quality, that they'd succeed on Deity, and conquering 1-2 AIs is still easy, but building up an Economy that can hold such conquest on Deity, that's what 99% of the players here can not or have difficulties with. As my friend Zx Zero Zx once said "normaly I trolololol the AIs by just whipping troops and watch them suicide themselves against my hills-cities, it's just that on Deity they still come with so many that it's still not possible" .

Remember, you can try yourself, I already gave you the 2 keys that you wanted . You'll be surprised that you'll simply lose 100/100 games, I did too, and I played Incans. As TMIT once said, "Deity is just a completely different ballgame, it cannot be compared to Immortal or anything else" .

To imagine the bonuses / discounts AI gets on Deity, you must imagine that AI gets something like 4* bonus from era and -50% discount on most things, they simply build Infantries in 1T, and to trade you must pay 1.5 times the Beakers they have, Deity-AIs simply out-research you even with tripple Gold, without it it's like "woot, I made it somehow again, AIs have only 5 techs more than I have, I'm in a good position" or it's like "omg, I have 4 cities and they have only 10, I'm winning" .

 

[dohh]

Having won 5 deity games out of 7 by now (most thanks to reload tho) I have to argue, that deity is so much more difficult than Immortal. It is significally more difficult but not a game from other planet.

1) Using permanently failgold for economy is the worst money earning strategy in long run. It can be used in early game, if You follow certain tech paths and You have nothing very useful to build. For example, You have marble, so You decide to go masonry (has some trade value) and then beeline CoL via Oracle, its Ok to build Stonehenge or Pyramids without even hope to finish them.

2) Beeline CoL is an awsome strategy, that I learned from Seraiel. For example I have 1 city challenge game going on on Deity, where Im in about tech parity by 1000 AD with just one city. If You dont pick opponents You wont be able to found the first religions, but You still can grab conf. I tried successfully to hurry monastery + missionaries to spread my religion to as many capitals as possible. Worked out very well even on Deity.

3) the tech paths for deity are very different from IMMORTAL. On immostal my best strategy was ignore oracle, and go masonry->writing->math->aestetics->literature-> from there only warring/production techs. On deity You have to calculate very well to get techs that give free GPs of free techs. That will help a lot in keeping parity.

4) Luck is certainly very very important factor of deity games. The mid-late game, where I asked Your help, the situation was lost already, I got double attacked in 4 turns. I reloaded just about 15 turns back, attacked one of my attackers immediately bribed 10 turn peace with other by giving him asked expensive tech.

50 turns later whole game was over - domination win. One decicion win/loss in only 50 turns.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Math is math, so no imagination is necessary. AI bonuses increase in equal steps from noble to immortal...then they jump the equivalent of five steps. So mathematically the AI makes a jump comparable to jumping straight from noble to immortal. That's one big step, but it isn't any different from a noble to immortal jump (which I'm not recommending particularly, but it serves as an example). The player handicaps don't make such a big jump, by the way, so the actual immortal to deity jump isn't as big as the noble to immortal, but it's a good ballpark.

This is a pretty concise article on overflow from whipping. Not as concise as "bigger whips are better, and whips just before growth minimize the time that the city needs to regrow", but perhaps more useful.

Bottom line, you have to streamline your play to keep up with growing AI bonuses, and the AI bonuses make a big jump there so you have to streamline a lot all at once to keep up at deity. Ways to streamline your play aren't hard to find. Seraiel himself provides plenty of them. So anyone who has a reason to pursue playing on deity should do it.

I find that playing 25 civs on a huge map and not whipping or attacking makes the game more than challenging enough for me without going very far up the difficulty ladder, so I probably won't be looking at playing any deity games.

 

[Seraiel]

Saying anyone with reason should try is different from saying what you said in the beginning (anybody can do it) . Good that you adapted ^^ .

Your guide btw. is very outdated, it's been a while since one could get rich by whipping PRO-walls.

Now I btw. found some additional arguments, a player only being connected to the internet not only:

a) Would not know what to search he would
b) Find wrong information like that or
c) nothing at all

And a + b + c over a long time cause

Many Humans don't accept and , therefor, beating Deity is not possible for anybody.

Q.E.D.