That's what I mean, maybe the message should be "City X has attained Y culture status" instead. I don't really know how the effect works, though by observation, I guess you need to expend additional levels worth of expansion to penetrate forests, hills, etc. or cross rivers.
What needs fixing before we release V25
- Thread starter ls612
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That's what I mean, maybe the message should be "City X has attained Y culture status" instead. I don't really know how the effect works, though by observation, I guess you need to expend additional levels worth of expansion to penetrate forests, hills, etc. or cross rivers.
GiuseppeIII
The Third Giuseppe
I think koshling just fixed the great wall problem
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
And attaining that cultural status is supposed to extend your cultural boarders. That is what it is for. Realistic Cultural Spread has more steps in it because it is realistic although reaching the cultural level that would have given you the two rings still sort of does but this could mean that you get two expansions of no plots followed by the full ring in one expansion.
I do suggest using the numbers I posted in my thread in the Ideas/Suggestions thread. I've tested with those and they've worked really well. They might be a little more than double in total but the speed has been more than doubled as well, a lot more actually.
Cheers
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
See here for his actual post. I repeat that you will need to change the "Realistic Cultural Spread" ones also.
I was thinking of tinkering with the realistic culture spread so that you always get the same number of extra tiles as you would have without realistic culture, but the ones you get are the ones that culture 'flows to' most easily, so the same order of tile access as you get now for realistic spread, but accelerated in such a way as to get the same area covered on each pop as you would without the option.
Opinions...?
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Not sure I understand. Currently in realistic culture spread there are a number of steps in between the ones in the normal steps. Are you saying that at the end of the normal spread in realistic cultural spread you will have the same number of plots just not in the usual shape?
Hmm. I like the way it works now. If someone wants certainty of getting plots on every culture spread would they not be better served by not using the Realistic Culture Spread option?
What could be "fixed" is the city's culture spreading to plots the nation has some culture points in but that the city should not yet have influence over due to it's influence level and the plots level requirements.
Cheers
What could be "fixed" is the city's culture spreading to plots the nation has some culture points in but that the city should not yet have influence over due to it's influence level and the plots level requirements.
Cheers
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Interesting idea. I'd probably have to remain a bit apathetic towards the choice to go with that or not until I saw how it changed things in play.
So if I understand correctly, under normal culture expansion, a city makes a claim on rings of tiles based on its culture level and then adds its current culture per turn to all tiles it claims, plus some bonus for tiles closer to the city tile than the outermost ring. Whichever civ has the most culture on a tile owns it on any given turn, assuming any civ has at least one point.
Under realistic culture expansion, rather than true distance < culture level +1 [which is rings and includes the 8 adjacent tiles at base culture=1], the determining factor in whether a tile is claimed at all is effective distance < culture level + 1, where effective distance is the true distance plus a factor for the terrain on that tile, plus a similar factor for each tile that culture has to go through to get to a tile in question. For tiles where this is true, culture is increased and control determined as in the normal manner.
Fixed borders does a number of things, but on a very basic level the difference is that, when active, on the turn a tile is claimed, the owner gets a sizable bonus which makes it harder for anyone else to exceed his culture total on the tile.
Maybe, if you wanted a similar effect to realistic spread, you could set some minimum culture required on a tile before it was claimed and reduce the culture added by some factor for effective distance (which I'm presuming is already calculated for the existing realistic spread effect). So a city would try to claim rings as under the normal system, but the actual culture assigned on a tile would be reduced by multiplying by something like
1/2^(max{0,Effective Distance-City Culture Level}l)
1/2 may be too big, perhaps 1/3? The max function is so this reduction doesn't become a bonus to tiles near the city.
I think this might be a fairly interesting system to watch, but at least one obvious downside is that claim of any new tiles would always be significantly delayed from the increase in a city's culture level, so that message would still have to be altered. Some kind of tooltip info for tiles a city is attempting to claim indicating progress would be necessary to have any chance of addressing DH's concern.
The threshold would have to be gamespeed dependant, but that's probably all as its terrain is already taken into account when determining the effective distance from the city. I don't know what a good value would be, and I only bring up the fixed border effect because some consideration of the relative size of the threshold and the fixed bonus would be necessary so one doesn't trivialize the other.
Anyway, just my $.02 at nigh 2 in the morning.
Under realistic culture expansion, rather than true distance < culture level +1 [which is rings and includes the 8 adjacent tiles at base culture=1], the determining factor in whether a tile is claimed at all is effective distance < culture level + 1, where effective distance is the true distance plus a factor for the terrain on that tile, plus a similar factor for each tile that culture has to go through to get to a tile in question. For tiles where this is true, culture is increased and control determined as in the normal manner.
Fixed borders does a number of things, but on a very basic level the difference is that, when active, on the turn a tile is claimed, the owner gets a sizable bonus which makes it harder for anyone else to exceed his culture total on the tile.
Maybe, if you wanted a similar effect to realistic spread, you could set some minimum culture required on a tile before it was claimed and reduce the culture added by some factor for effective distance (which I'm presuming is already calculated for the existing realistic spread effect). So a city would try to claim rings as under the normal system, but the actual culture assigned on a tile would be reduced by multiplying by something like
1/2^(max{0,Effective Distance-City Culture Level}l)
1/2 may be too big, perhaps 1/3? The max function is so this reduction doesn't become a bonus to tiles near the city.
I think this might be a fairly interesting system to watch, but at least one obvious downside is that claim of any new tiles would always be significantly delayed from the increase in a city's culture level, so that message would still have to be altered. Some kind of tooltip info for tiles a city is attempting to claim indicating progress would be necessary to have any chance of addressing DH's concern.
The threshold would have to be gamespeed dependant, but that's probably all as its terrain is already taken into account when determining the effective distance from the city. I don't know what a good value would be, and I only bring up the fixed border effect because some consideration of the relative size of the threshold and the fixed bonus would be necessary so one doesn't trivialize the other.
Anyway, just my $.02 at nigh 2 in the morning.
As DH mentions, if you have realistic culture spread activated you get some extra culture levels in between the normal ones. So if the spread is deemed too slow we can also add more intermediate levels.
Or I could tweak more subtly so that any spread event guarnatees to always annex at least ONE tile (so the 'easiest' one to spread to always gets the spread even if no others do)
Are there any plans to address the 'obsolescence wall techs' at all? Right now (unless it's been recently addressed without me having noticed) researching bronze working (kills stone tools workshop) and writing (elder councils) are both civ-crippling events that take some time to recover from.
There was talk about just fading out the bonuses more progressively on those buildings (stoen tools workshop anyway) or replacing percentages with absolutes for a period before final obsoleteing (elder council case). Did anything ever come of this or is it going to?
The stone tools workshop issue is particulaly egregious. Getting access to bronze tools doesn't suddenly make the stone ones you had before cease to work - it provides a better alternative, but we are modelling a situation where all the workman refuse to use the old tools now in a fit of pique or something!
There was talk about just fading out the bonuses more progressively on those buildings (stoen tools workshop anyway) or replacing percentages with absolutes for a period before final obsoleteing (elder council case). Did anything ever come of this or is it going to?
The stone tools workshop issue is particulaly egregious. Getting access to bronze tools doesn't suddenly make the stone ones you had before cease to work - it provides a better alternative, but we are modelling a situation where all the workman refuse to use the old tools now in a fit of pique or something!
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
It doesn't give you a better tool to start with just a prettier one! As production improves bronze becomes better in most cases. However some cases will have to wait for iron and steel tools - granite carving for all those monuments for example.
IMO Some of the extra production gold and food that gets added to the stone tool workshop should be going on scavenging camps and camps especially those at Scrapping, Chopping and Piercing.
Well ok, prettier then. My point was that it doesn't stop your stone tools working, whether it gives you better replacements or not. This is particularly bad for the AI because it has an underlying assumption that tech progression is alwasy positive to some degree and it doesn't evaluate the effects of obsoleting, so it will reseach these killer techs probably a lot earlier than a human will now they have such (short to medium term) devestating effects.
@DH:
All that Realistic Culture does with regards to the growth levels is that it adds more of them. Those growth levels have also been adjusted, so things should still work right with it enabled.
Edit: The new levels are now on the SVN.
All that Realistic Culture does with regards to the growth levels is that it adds more of them. Those growth levels have also been adjusted, so things should still work right with it enabled.
Edit: The new levels are now on the SVN.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
As long as you do grow. I had one city "expand" twice and still only have the 9 squares around it. This was especially bad since it was the one next to copper on one side and elephants on another. No other city anywhere near.
BTW with all the new stuff going in eg new crimes, can I put in the Martian terrains, or at least the art so that we only get one set of FPK's? What about animals or resources?
I would personally wait until after the release for the Martian terrain, all else being equal. No need to add unnecessary bloat to the release.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Well by the time you get to bronze working you should already be experimenting with metals such as Copper Working. Perhaps I could phase out the effects of the stone tool workshop over various metal techs (ex. Copper Working, Metal Casting, Bronze Working, Lead Working and Iron Working).
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
OK I won't add the four art files at 683kb each. Oh, or the 7 buttons. Mars terrain reuses a lot of Earth terrain.
