1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

What was Kael's reasoning...?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Horatius, Feb 24, 2012.

  1. Horatius

    Horatius Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    575
    What was Kael's reasoning to give Battlemasters the 50% bonus in tundra (and nothing else when they are more expensive...) when there's hardly much of those tiles in any reasonably balanced map (just in the edges)?
    I still don't get it.
    Sure, they pack a punch in the tundra, but when?

    Ilians can at least turn tiles to ice in more than one way.

    Why give Malakim such advantages related to desert but the Doviello must get almost nothing for their inner abilities?
     
  2. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    7,943
    Location:
    Seyda Neen, Vvardenfell
    nobody knows, there's tons of missed opportunities in the mod
     
  3. Heathcliff

    Heathcliff Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2006
    Messages:
    251
    Location:
    Sweden
    I think it's because Doviello starts with a 4 strength dude and hence has the best starting position of all civs. So they cant get that powerful terrain.
    There is a reason why Doviello warriorrushes every game, so they can get a city with better terrain.
     
  4. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    9,908
    The Malakim aren't much in desert. In original FFH, they're floodplains people. Guess that explains that half their units looks Egyptian and half their units looks Arabian.

    And true, FFH contains some rather weird quirks.

    They warrior rush because they are at their strongest early. It doesn't really do anything to do with terrain. They probably deserve a +1 :hammers: on tundra so that it would be equal to Plains for them. Not overpowered, but flavourful.
     
  5. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,614
    I haven't played vanilla FfH2 in a long time, so had to look this up in the Civilopedia. Battlemasters don't require a Training Yard, unlike Champions, so making them more expensive was probably a balancing measure.

    I'm guessing giving them the bonus in tundra was just a flavor matter, since you're right that tundra will generally be in the remoter parts of the map. Might give an advantage if you play with the End of Winter option, although by the time you get to Battlemasters the world should have warmed up, so any advantage would be minimal, at best.
     
  6. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    9,908
    No Doviello melee unit requires a Training Yard. That is supposed to be a Doviello perk, you shouldn't balance it away.
     
  7. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    An innate tundra bonus would be no more flavorful than no bonus; they do not want to live in tundra, they simply have to (all they know). A camp bonus would be more flavorful and more valuable; better shows how they live, rather than encouraging settlement in tundra.
     
  8. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    9,908
    +1 hammer doesn't really encourage settlement in tundra - it turns it to plains, and areas of all plains aren't that desirable - grasslands with forests and hills or floodplains are still more desirable. It just makes tundra more bearable for them - which it's certainly is.
     
  9. Horatius

    Horatius Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    575
    It would be nice if they could transform the enemy's terrain during war like the Ilians.
     
  10. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    9,908
    Well, lorewise they don't really have any terrain-changing powers.
     
  11. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    And you would see the exact same benefit, in a much more flavorful way, with a camp bonus rather than an innate terrain boost. They aren't supposed to like Tundra, but know how to live there. Affecting the entire terrain is (imo) like using a sledge hammer.
     
  12. Selrahc

    Selrahc Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2009
    Messages:
    80
    A camp bonus may debatably be more flavourful, but it certainly isn't of equal strength.
     
  13. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    I would disagree. On any reasonable map, most tundra tiles contain forests. The bonus would be able to be applied to nearly all tundra tiles as a result. Beyond that, the bonus would apply in all OTHER forested tiles, thereby giving a bonus in far more locations. It also allows the Doviello to pursue a lore-appropriate religion, FoL (always see them as a very chaotic variant of FoL) better than any civ short of the Elves.

    If anything, boosted camps are stronger in game than boosted tundra, while also more appropriate.
     
  14. CyberForte

    CyberForte Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2011
    Messages:
    63
    I think the problem is that base FfH doesn't, unless I'm recalling wrongly, allow camps to be built except on harvestable resources?
     
  15. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,614
    I haven't played base FfH2 in a long time, but that's my recollection also.
     
  16. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    Eh. Certainly not true of RifE, I haven't played FfH in years though.
     
  17. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,614
    Same here, I've pretty much been exclusively playing RifE for the longest time.
     
  18. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    Speaking of which: sometime in the next few days I'll likely be making a thread asking for trait ideas for quite a few leaders. You've contibuted before, so I'm hoping you'll have some ideas for me. :p
     
  19. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,614
    Thanks for the good word, Valkrionn. I think it's been a while since I had a useful idea or suggestion, but I'll be happy to contribute whatever I can. (I did have some suggestions long ago that made it into base FfH2 and were carried over into the modmods, so I'm content with that.)

    Back on-topic (sort of), there have been quite a few threads discussing the Doviello. I particularly liked this one, especially Xienwolf's ideas in this post and this post. Took me some time to track it down, so just had to share.
     
  20. CyberForte

    CyberForte Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2011
    Messages:
    63
    Same here. <.<; Was why I had to go back and open up WB and try it before I said anything, though I didn't try exhaustively.
     

Share This Page