What's the most important thing in the world?

[Lohrenswald]

Unless you believe that the farmers who harvest the food work for nothing, that the pipes that give you water are made by unpaid workers, that buildings are built by illegal immigrants who don't want to be paid, essentially, yes. It does.

what is the motivation of these workers

 

[gay_Aleks]

getting paid? which can result into affording them all those nice things

 

[Lohrenswald]

It's almost like the money is an unneccesary middleman

 

[gay_Aleks]

Yes, an unnecessary middleman with a lot of necessary guardians, who have things like nukes, submarines, laws, automatic rifles, rockets, amongst others, to protect it.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Are you trying to make a point?

 

[gay_Aleks]

Yes. That money has become, one or another way, an integral part of human civilization and there's a lot of people who aren't willing to let go and engage into, I don't know, peaceful hippy commune?

 

[Lohrenswald]

the same could have been said about monarchy 300 years ago

 

[gay_Aleks]

Fair, but monarchies still exist.

 

[Lohrenswald]

whoop de doo

"Changing things to the better is hard, so let's not"

 

[gay_Aleks]

How do you know it's for the better?

 

[Daw]

How do you know it's for the better?

I don't know how Lohrenswald knows it, but I know it because getting rid of smoke and mirrors helps seeing things clearly.

I do like the monarchy analogue. Some time ago monarchy was a valid way to rule a country. Then it became obsolete. Current monarchies for the most part are either not there or a traditional cultural thing with monarchs being basically museum showpiece artifacts:

G(uide): At your right you can see a bridge built by Roman legionaries during the Gaelic War...
T(ourists): Whoa!
C(ameras): Click, snap, clack.
G: At your left you can see a castle that was initially built in 12th century, then ruined in 13th century, rebuilt anew in 16th century and reworked beyond recognition in 18th century...
T: Cool!
C: Snap, clack, click.
G: At the upper balcony of the left tower you can see the king of this country, whose family still lives in the castle, and who is smiling and waving at us. You can smile and wave back.
T: Groovy!
C: Clack, click, snap...

Same with the money. For quite some time - and up until now - it has been useful and inevitable. It's usefulness and inevitability is currently increasingly questionable.

Because while money has indeed been the only tool to find out who did what, how much, and who now owes what to whom, there are (or can be developed in no time) more tools for that, and I'd say that better ones, as they are (or can be) more precise, transparent and direct.

It's just that it is a very new thing that has been around for what, two decades maybe?

 

[Kyriakos]

Hm, using "credits" via the web (or how it was called in Beneath a Steel Sky, iirc DISC? ) can create other sorts of issues, though. I mean currently at least there is no way someone far far away can hack into the bank-notes in your pocket and erase them.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Same with the money. For quite some time - and up until now - it has been useful and inevitable. It's usefulness and inevitability is currently increasingly questionable.

Because while money has indeed been the only tool to find out who did what, how much, and who now owes what to whom, there are (or can be developed in no time) more tools for that, and I'd say that better ones, as they are (or can be) more precise, transparent and direct.

It's just that it is a very new thing that has been around for what, two decades maybe?

What's that "very new thing" that would supposedly un-do something that has been ruling mankind (more or less) for the last two millenia?

 

[Daw]

@Kyriakos: I was reluctant about posting it in Russian News thread, but here goes:

"32 million rubles were robbed from a woman as she was walking out of the currency exchange office in Moscow."

Cool, eh?

Why the "poor" victim was carrying around 400'000$ in cash on her for this flashback of the 90s to happen is a question for another discussion, the point here is that the professions of a robber or a pickpocket are probably as old as money, if not older. So the money in your pocket are not safe as well. And are harder to be traced.
_____________________________

@Tolni: computer networks.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Yes, but let's get back on topic: what does this have to do anything with our previous discussion on money? You were talking how money is supposedly soon going to be phased out or what-ever, and now...what?

 

[Ryika]

It's almost like the money is an unneccesary middleman

Good luck finding someone who wants your service as <whetever you do> everytime you want to eat something.
Well, more specifically someone who is a farmer or has recently traded <whatever he does> for food of course.

There will always be a middleman. That middleman may not always be money, but we've moved from trading goods for good reasons.

 

[Kyriakos]

I don't think it will be phased out easily (if it will be phased out at all), yet at the very least there should be some kind of forced sponsoring by the ultra-rich (as it was in ancient Athens, where over a certain -but very large- income/wealth you were forced to sponsor things like theatrical plays, festivals, or public works, and you could just choose which ones).

 

[gay_Aleks]

They call it charity these days.

 

[Daw]

Yes, but let's get back on topic: what does this have to do anything with our previous discussion on money? You were talking how money is supposedly soon going to be phased out or what-ever, and now...what?

And now the craziness of all secondary structures and upperworks and other addons on money becomes obvious, no? And obsolete.

 

[Farm Boy]

Money is useful in that it represents, when it's functioning, compulsion. Compulsion is simply power. It's a longstanding trait for bad humans to crave power above other things.