When did feminism go completely crazy?

[Narz]

Beat male posters speaking against women, which is nearly all this thread would have otherwise (Maybe Valka would still post).

Who is speaking 'against women'?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Just so we are clear, I use Bing rather than Google.

Google has become so ubiquitous that it's become a verb.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Certainly. Please provide me with a time machine, video camera, digital camera, and a method of mind-reading so I can go back to my pre-internet life and find all those TV shows, newspaper articles, and personal conversations in which the topic came up.

In short: Just because you haven't heard it said, that doesn't mean nobody else has.

Well obviously. But conversely, just because you HAVE heard it said, that doesn't mean it's "common". Which is why some sort of objective study as to how common or widespread this viewpoint actually is would be useful.

You can't really blame me for not being convinced when the only evidence I ever see is of the "it's self-evidently obvious, it's everywhere. Look, here's one sensationalist news story or Wikipedia article I've found that shows it sometimes happens", when meanwhile in my actual real life I never, ever encounter this attitude from anyone. I think I'm fairly justified in being sceptical about the notion that the majority of society, as a general rule, blames rape victims for being raped.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Well obviously. But conversely, just because you HAVE heard it said, that doesn't mean it's "common". Which is why some sort of objective study as to how common or widespread this viewpoint actually is would be useful.

You can't really blame me for not being convinced when the only evidence I ever see is of the "it's self-evidently obvious, it's everywhere. Look, here's one sensationalist news story or Wikipedia article I've found that shows it sometimes happens", when meanwhile in my actual real life I never, ever encounter this attitude from anyone. I think I'm fairly justified in being sceptical about the notion that the majority of society, as a general rule, blames rape victims for being raped.

Did I say it's common everywhere on the planet, among all walks of society? No. I said it's common, or at least was common, from my perspective. And that incident happened in my province, so of course it's more commonly known here than elsewhere.

That news story is just the one I happened to think of.

There are others. I guess you never heard of SlutWalk?

The Toronto cop who blamed the victims because of what they were wearing seemed clueless that it was actually the rapists' fault and not the fault of the victims.

 

[aelf]

Then why do you (and others) continue to be hostile whenever we bring men's issues up?

Err, I brought one up myself? The section of the male population who are sexually frustrated and have immature, adolescent attitudes when it comes to gender relations is a men's issue.

This is the strangest reply I've seen on this thread (and its been a pretty weird thread).

I'm not surprised. Either you didn't read my subsequent post or you don't get analogies, the latter which is a pretty common problem.

 

[Senethro]

Did I say it's common everywhere on the planet, among all walks of society? No. I said it's common, or at least was common, from my perspective. And that incident happened in my province, so of course it's more commonly known here than elsewhere.

Its pretty damn common, Manfred just thinks deliberate obtuseness wins arguments.

Manfred, there are reasonable number of studies on this issue that were a low effort google search away. Knock yourself out on the objectivity.

https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=rape+victim+dress&btnG=&as_sdt=1,5&as_sdtp=

 

[Farm Boy]

Who is speaking 'against women'?

Yea, this is one of the several things that tends to make threads poo fests. He has a post or several he's likely addressing this to, but there's not direct quote link and the statement expands the thought to the entire thread, then a half dozen people think he's said they argue against the rights and wellbeing of women. He's not the only poster that's done this this. He generally doesn't on purpose from what I can tell.

I am fairly sure you are not implying that all middle-aged women are dour, frumpy, and judgmental, right?

After all, there are no middle-aged women on this forum, right? *looks at profile, notices that 52nd birthday is coming up in a few weeks* Oh, wait...

Heheh. Yea, definitely no I'm not. I'm specifically referencing the women Borachio mentioned that Warpus was commenting on. These are the ladies wondering what clothing selection got raped girls raped. I am believing Sir Borachio that these women exist. He specified their age, I am inferring their frumpiness from their hostility to "rape inducing" outfits, and then making a value judgement on their personalities for holding the opinion in the first place. Again, taking Sir B at his word that they exist, for I see no reason not to. Then, assuming they exist and hold these opinions, I still don't really think it's my place to make rape jokes with them as the target. It's just too possible that their harsh opinions were forged in horrible circumstances. Not worth it. Hence why I'd make screwing a pig jokes instead. I am presently under the impression that it is hard to accidentally fornicate with barnyard animals, people are unlikely to have been victimized by the fact that they have fornicated with barnyard animals, and thus, in the world of offcolor and offensive jokes, those are fairer game.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Did I say it's common everywhere on the planet, among all walks of society? No. I said it's common, or at least was common, from my perspective. And that incident happened in my province, so of course it's more commonly known here than elsewhere.

That news story is just the one I happened to think of.

There are others. I guess you never heard of SlutWalk?

The Toronto cop who blamed the victims because of what they were wearing seemed clueless that it was actually the rapists' fault and not the fault of the victims.

To be fair I can't recall what you originally claimed, and I don't know which of the last 20 pages it was on, but my interpretation was that you were saying that that attitude is generally common. Not just common in your own personal experience. Obviously I'm willing to grant that latter as I have no grounds to disbelieve you, but I still wouldn't see that as conclusive evidence of any more general claim. In the same way as I wouldn't see one police officer's view as evidence of a more general claim either. And yes, you will be able to cite example after example after example, but given that we live on a planet of 7 billion people that's hardly surprising and doesn't really give us any sort of idea as to the actual prevalence of the problem. I would still suggest that that fact that any of these incidents make the news, have their own wiki pages, or inspire demonstrations, would suggest that they must be fairly noteworthy and exceptional though.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Its pretty damn common, Manfred just thinks deliberate obtuseness wins arguments.

Manfred, there are reasonable number of studies on this issue that were a low effort google search away. Knock yourself out on the objectivity.

https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=rape+victim+dress&btnG=&as_sdt=1,5&as_sdtp=

Well the first one looked promising, but was hidden behind a paywall. The other didn't look quite so promising the further I went down the list. I'd rather just be given some stats than wade through all that myself to be honest. Given than I'm not the one making the claim I don't really see why the onus is on me to substantiate it.

Anyway, if you think asking for actual evidence vs anecdotes is obtuseness then so be it.

 

[Senethro]

Well the first one looked promising, but was hidden behind a paywall. The other didn't look quite so promising the further I went down the list. I'd rather just be given some stats than wade through all that myself to be honest. Given than I'm not the one making the claim I don't really see why the onus is on me to substantiate it.

Anyway, if you think asking for actual evidence vs anecdotes is obtuseness then so be it.

Everyone would like to be handed clear unambiguous results but few people want to put in the effort of all that reading.

I can't guess what you want and I'm not especially inclined to try without some goalposts to aim for.

 

[Triewd]

Everyone would like to be handed clear unambiguous results but few people want to put in the effort of all that reading.

I can't guess what you want and I'm not especially inclined to try without some goalposts to aim for.

Just one thing whilst I wade though this thread - YOU are the one who has to prove on every thing you claim the burden of proof is yours period.

The list of sites you linked to showed considerable bias.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Everyone would like to be handed clear unambiguous results but few people want to put in the effort of all that reading.

I can't guess what you want and I'm not especially inclined to try without some goalposts to aim for.

Well you gave me a list of links to papers of which hardly any were more recent than about ten years old and about half of which seemed to be from the early 80s or even 70s. Attitudes on so many things have changed to such an extent since then that I would dispute the relevance of any of them in 2015. Coupled with this, the one article I actually tried to read was curtailed at page 2 before any actual numbers had been introduced and I had to pay if I wanted to read more.

I'm really not trying to be difficult, but if a claim is made which doesn't at all gel with my own experience or opinion then I don't think the onus is on me to disprove the claim. And I would have thought that it really was that common then there would be better evidence available than a handful of Wikipedia articles about notable cases and a page of journal results, which may or may not actually be relevant, from 25 to 40 years ago.

I guess my goalposts would be - some sort of broad study showing that a statistically significant proportion of people believe that women* who get raped are to blame for their attack.

(I would also suggest that highlighting certain factors that could well contribute to a heightened risk of being raped, and perhaps advising against them, isn't actually the same as saying "she deserved it, let him off your honour", but I have a feeling that would fall on deaf ears.)

* I would say "people", but we all know what we're actually talking about here.

 

[Farm Boy]

I think the people distinction is perhaps relevant, yes? At least over here. Getting raped is a presumed likely aspect of criminal punishment and incarceration. That's a people issue. It seems like the presumption is often that those victims deserve it or they wouldn't be getting it.

 

[Senethro]

I think the people distinction is perhaps relevant, yes? At least over here. Getting raped is a presumed likely aspect of criminal punishment and incarceration. That's a people issue. It seems like the presumption is often that those victims deserve it or they wouldn't be getting it.

Yeah, hadn't considered that. Ugly but true.

Well you gave me a list of links to papers of which hardly any were more recent than about ten years old and about half of which seemed to be from the early 80s or even 70s. Attitudes on so many things have changed to such an extent since then that I would dispute the relevance of any of them in 2015.

Now you're starting to make your own claims. If you have the evidence to make such claims, please share. Its related and would make a good starting point.

Coupled with this, the one article I actually tried to read was curtailed at page 2 before any actual numbers had been introduced and I had to pay if I wanted to read more.

Research is difficult.

I'm really not trying to be difficult, but if a claim is made which doesn't at all gel with my own experience or opinion then I don't think the onus is on me to disprove the claim. And I would have thought that it really was that common then there would be better evidence available than a handful of Wikipedia articles about notable cases and a page of journal results, which may or may not actually be relevant, from 25 to 40 years ago.

I guess my goalposts would be - some sort of broad study showing that a statistically significant proportion of people believe that women* who get raped are to blame for their attack.

Aight, firstly that wasn't what Valka said. It was about how aspects of the victims behaviour/dress etc can affect perception of the attack.

Also, whats broad and and whats statistically significant? Keeping in mind that few people have the funding to reach even 1% of a nations population.

(I would also suggest that highlighting certain factors that could well contribute to a heightened risk of being raped, and perhaps advising against them, isn't actually the same as saying "she deserved it, let him off your honour", but I have a feeling that would fall on deaf ears.)

What certain factors?

 

[Narz]

There are others. I guess you never heard of SlutWalk?

Holy crap I gotta goto that event! I love sluts.

 

[Farm Boy]

Yeah, hadn't considered that. Ugly but true.

I don't want to make this issue about men, but again limiting this to my country, if we stipulate that culture plays a role in the rate of penetrative rape, we stipulate that nearly all penetrative rape is committed by men, that there is a culture of rape victims having 'earned' their rapes: if all these things are true - If that lady in the video Warpus linked isn't totally full of shat when she says 100,000 - 140,000 men are raped in US prisons every year with the knowing consent of the state as an implicit form of punishment - we aren't going to make meaningful progress on the issue of society treating people like getting raped is your own damned fault. The whole idea of justice is built around it.

Edit: lost part of my post. Sorry.

Now realize how many people/men(disparate sentencing being real) are locked up for low level nonviolent drug offenses. Realize that we know they're getting raped in prison. That we, as a state, rape men for smoking pot. And we're shocked that there's a culture that blames women for getting raped if they drink? Maybe if we stop locking up guys and faulting them for drug use then we'll stop considering getting messed up a rape worthy behavior. But we'll need to gut it out of prisons before the "you earned this *****" culture can even meaningfully be addressed. You don't reduce crime by telling poor people crimes are wrong. You reduce crime by making poor people not so poor.

 

[caketastydelish]

Translation of Aelf's argument throughout the thread:

Anyone who doesn't agree with my (his) political views 100% is a raging, immature sexist, sexually frustrated (whatever that even means), etc.

No, it doesn't even matter if they repeatedly deny they're an MRA an continue to say like a broken record that women have it worse than men and that there are more women's issues than men's issues. Even if they say they're *closer* to being feminist but just not 100% there because of some particular issues within the movement, it is irrelevant. By not agreeing with Aelf 100% on every little detail you are a sexist, you are immature, and you can't get laid.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

To be fair I can't recall what you originally claimed, and I don't know which of the last 20 pages it was on, but my interpretation was that you were saying that that attitude is generally common. Not just common in your own personal experience. Obviously I'm willing to grant that latter as I have no grounds to disbelieve you, but I still wouldn't see that as conclusive evidence of any more general claim. In the same way as I wouldn't see one police officer's view as evidence of a more general claim either. And yes, you will be able to cite example after example after example, but given that we live on a planet of 7 billion people that's hardly surprising and doesn't really give us any sort of idea as to the actual prevalence of the problem. I would still suggest that that fact that any of these incidents make the news, have their own wiki pages, or inspire demonstrations, would suggest that they must be fairly noteworthy and exceptional though.

Many things that are common have their own Wiki pages and other sites. Chocolate cake, for instance. Millions, if not billions, of people on this planet either eat chocolate cake regularly, or at least on special occasions. By your logic, since it's a common occurrence, there should be no news features about chocolate cake, no Wiki pages to do with chocolate cake, no other websites to do with chocolate cake, and it shouldn't be mentioned on TV since it's just so common.

Yet it seems to be mentioned all over the place.

I'm really not trying to be difficult, but if a claim is made which doesn't at all gel with my own experience or opinion then I don't think the onus is on me to disprove the claim. And I would have thought that it really was that common then there would be better evidence available than a handful of Wikipedia articles about notable cases and a page of journal results, which may or may not actually be relevant, from 25 to 40 years ago.

I guess my goalposts would be - some sort of broad study showing that a statistically significant proportion of people believe that women* who get raped are to blame for their attack.

(I would also suggest that highlighting certain factors that could well contribute to a heightened risk of being raped, and perhaps advising against them, isn't actually the same as saying "she deserved it, let him off your honour", but I have a feeling that would fall on deaf ears.)

* I would say "people", but we all know what we're actually talking about here.

Court cases and the accompanying news reports are not "anecdotes." I could have linked other sites, but chose the Wiki articles because they sum up the events that happened and if you want to know more, there are links you can follow.


BTW: You might prefer charts and numbers and graphs. I don't. I prefer to communicate with words. So if you want charts and graphs from me, you're going to be disappointed.

Holy crap I gotta goto that event! I love sluts.

I'm guessing this is meant as a joke, but honestly...

 

[Triewd]

Thing Is Valka you may communicate with words but we don't we communicate with numbers facts statistics, and when you make a claim and want US to be convinced you need to well ....convince.

 

[aelf]

Translation of Aelf's argument throughout the thread:

Anyone who doesn't agree with my (his) political views 100% is a raging, immature sexist, sexually frustrated (whatever that even means), etc.

No, it doesn't even matter if they repeatedly deny they're an MRA an continue to say like a broken record that women have it worse than men and that there are more women's issues than men's issues. Even if they say they're *closer* to being feminist but just not 100% there because of some particular issues within the movement, it is irrelevant. By not agreeing with Aelf 100% on every little detail you are a sexist, you are immature, and you can't get laid.

Feel free to quote me from this thread. I never said anything about MRAs being sexually frustrated. I was talking about rape apologists, which some MRAs are but certainly not all of them.

I didn't say you were an MRA either. I have pretty dim view of the MRA crowd, but if some people here are to be believed, the movement is as legitimate as feminism. If that is the case, then maybe it needs better spokes people and would be better off not being associated with someone like you, who can't debate your way out of a paper bag.

Finally, I've never made agreeing with me a requirement for not being sexist, immature or sexually frustrated. Again, I was referring to rape apologists, and since you deny being one, why do you continue to go down this path? You seem to have a perverse need to prompt people to accuse and re-accuse you of all sorts of things, perhaps in order to vindicate yourself and the little crusade you have going here. It seems like a symptom of a deep sense of insecurity and self-loathing.