When did feminism go completely crazy?

[caketastydelish]

So the both of them overreacted, I guess Dawkins and her have a lot in common. Perhaps he should ask her out.

 

[sophie]

As long as feminism is a female only preserve which I as a straight male cannot enter, then why do I care? At the very least, give men a token voice in the conversation before laughing them out. That way we have more of a stake in the issue.

And as long as men continue insisting on making absolutely everything about them we aren't going to move forward. This post right here is precisely the problem. Not some "whacky crazy feminists" but men insisting that something not at all about them be entirely about them.

 

[caketastydelish]

And as long as men continue insisting on making absolutely everything about them we aren't going to move forward. This post right here is precisely the problem. Not some "whacky crazy feminists" but men insisting that something not at all about them be entirely about them.

No, it's that even when men have their own things about men, feminist actively complain and try to shut them down.

(That said, the MRA movement offers no positive solution either, I give you that much).

 

[Narz]

CAFE, Adam McPhee's :

"As is the problem with many feminists, Ms. Decker feels men shouldn’t be having this conversation. She feels they should take a deep breath and just listen."

Yes. Whenever someone tells you to shut up & just listen because you're white/male/straight opinion doesn't matter (I'm also tall & good looking so my opinion really must not matter) its usually best to walk away.

Anyone who wants to just have a monologue isn't worth listening to.

 

[Narz]

This is exactly what being a lesbian is like.

I imagine being gay in a city like NYC (or San Fran) is going to be easier than being straight.

My good friend is bi. I asked him, "Dude, if you're really bi, why even bother with girls". He then admitted he likes girls better.

Getting sex as a straight dude is hard work. If I was gay I could go places 7-days a week & just whip my dick out.

Obviously gay people have had to work very hard to get where they're at & I still would never want to be one in a small town (not to mention a Muslim country) but if you're a sexually frustrated gay man in a large city you probably have serious looks/social skills issues.

 

[sophie]

No, it's that even when men have their own things about men, feminist actively complain and try to shut them down.

(That said, the MRA movement offers no positive solution either, I give you that much).

Because this isn't about men. It's the main problem and what most people mean by the phrase "check your privilege". Literally everything on this planet is about white men, and the instant something arises that isn't about them it's their desire to make it all about them. It may not necessarily be nefarious or malicious in intent. But demanding that you give men a seat at the table is rather (as BvBPL rightly mentioned) like [defecating] all over a breast cancer charity drive because the money won't also be donated to pancreatic cancer. Yes there are other types of cancer besides breast cancer, but that's rather not the point. This is a breast cancer drive.

 

[Narz]

Part of reducing this behaviour, then, is surely addressing how masculinity is constructed from a young age, how it is related to women, autonomy and consent. For instance, at school when boys chase, grope, dack or kiss girls, if that's treated lightly as "boys will be boys" and not strongly quashed and the girls' individuality and rights and consent strongly emphasised, then some boys will grow up with that same sense of entitlement and translate it over to harassing or abusive behaviour.

Who accepts/treats lightly that behavior? If someone did that to a girlfriend I had or daughter I certainly would not take it later.

Some men are rapists, molesters. I've been with quite a few women who've suffered sexual abuse. Its a horrid thing. Most men aren't. The majority of men will not only protect their women but try to help them get over what they've been thru.

I don't think 'society' condones rape or molestation. Last I checked being a molester was about the lowest thing you could call someone, even less respected than being an atheist.

 

[Narz]

but that's rather not the point. This is a breast cancer drive.

My bad, I was looking for the testicular cancer group.

 

[sophie]

Who accepts/treats lightly that behavior? If someone did that to a girlfriend I had or daughter I certainly would not take it later.

Some men are rapists, molesters. I've been with quite a few women who've suffered sexual abuse. Its a horrid thing. Most men aren't. The majority of men will not only protect their women but try to help them get over what they've been thru.

I don't think 'society' condones rape or molestation. Last I checked being a molester was about the lowest thing you could call someone, even less respected than being an atheist.

When they're older? Maybe.

When they're in 1st or 2nd grade? "Awww! That just means he likes you and doesn't know how to express it!"

 

[Narz]

I'm fine with feminism being all about women's issues. But some people seem to say that it's a movement designed to promote equality between the genders, aspiring to address gender issues no matter what the gender is.

But based on my personal experience, that doesn't seem to be the case. So there's some contradiction there somewhere, or I just don't get out enough.



Let me rephrase it this way:

Whenever I've seen a feminist tackle or discuss a gender inequality issue - it has been always framed around the conceptual idea of women's rights. That concept seems to always sit at the core, while all other considerations are built around it.

I have honestly only heard a feminist frame an issue as a "Male issue" 3 or 4 times, ever. And each time it happened it was always someone complaining that feminism doesn't do enough to address issues from that point of view.

That's my experience with feminism, so take it for what it is.

Pretty much mine as well.

I'm all for female rights & empowerment. But if you're going to claim its about egalitarianism change the name.

Feminism is similar to PETA, good concept (helping animals, bringing attention to injustice) but bad execution ('privilege' shaming, etc, that makes everyone, including most women want to distance themselves from them).

 

[Narz]

When they're older? Maybe.

When they're in 1st or 2nd grade? "Awww! That just means he likes you and doesn't know how to express it!"

If my daughter told me someone touched her inappropriately in school I would take action on it, even if it was another 6 year old.

She's going to grow up very pretty, it worries me, and I'm sure she'll have to deal with creepy dudes at various points in life but believe me the issues will be taken seriously if they come up. I'm well aware it is not so in many families & that's a tragedy.

 

[Zelig]

I support women.

 

[Arwon]

Who accepts/treats lightly that behavior? If someone did that to a girlfriend I had or daughter I certainly would not take it later.

Some men are rapists, molesters. I've been with quite a few women who've suffered sexual abuse. Its a horrid thing. Most men aren't. The majority of men will not only protect their women but try to help them get over what they've been thru.

I don't think 'society' condones rape or molestation. Last I checked being a molester was about the lowest thing you could call someone, even less respected than being an atheist.

Schools and parents aren't always great with teaching kids about boundaries and autonomy even when they do tell kids to stop doing things. "That's another person and you never ever touch another person without their express permission" isn't always or even often the message. And the whole "that just means they like you!" thing. Ugh.

 

[caketastydelish]

My bad, I was looking for the testicular cancer group.

This.

Because this isn't about men.

And that's perfectly fine. The argument is how come men don't have their own specific group like feminism is for women.

Literally everything on this planet is about white men

This brown man wants a citation for that claim, and I'll go as far to say white privelege does indeed exists. But when you're going to say something as absurd as "Literally everything on this planet is about white men" I'm going to want a source.

, and the instant something arises that isn't about them it's their desire to make it all about them.

No. I've even talked to you in fiftychat personally. I mentioned some specific male issues (PTSD in soldiers, suicide, etc) and your response is always: "It trivializes the issues facing women". As if just because even though women are having it worse overall, men still can't have their own issues.

It may not necessarily be nefarious or malicious in intent. But demanding that you give men a seat at the table is rather (as BvBPL rightly mentioned) like [defecating] all over a breast cancer charity drive because the money won't also be donated to pancreatic cancer. Yes there are other types of cancer besides breast cancer, but that's rather not the point. This is a breast cancer drive.

I've honestly never heard anyone say there shouldn't be breast cancer drives, and if there are any please be the first to tell me so I can tell them to piss off. On the other hand, I think the argument is that pancreatic cancer research should receive the same amount of funding as breast cancer funding, whereas breast cancer receives far more. It should be at a 50/50 ratio.

 

[caketastydelish]

And the whole "that just means they like you!" thing. Ugh.

People actually say this?

 

[Evie]

And that's perfectly fine. The argument is how come men don't have their own specific group like feminism is for women.

In no small part, because the whole vocabulary of "Men's rights" tend to be dominated by people who use it to mean anti-feminism and pro-masculinity.

So any attempt to start a dialogue on the topic, even one aimed at actual, real issues and injustice that come from being male in our society would tend to draw comparison with these guys, and tend to draw these guys into the fray, coopting the attempt into another platform for their views.

That, and of course, a lot of the difficulties faced by males in our society stems from masculinity and this whole image of what males should be. And attacking masculinity in the name of men rights...it's not going to be a selling proposal among men.

 

[caketastydelish]

In no small part, because the whole vocabulary of "Men's rights" tend to be dominated by people who use it to mean anti-feminism and pro-masculinity.

Meh

So any attempt to start a dialogue on the topic, even one aimed at actual, real issues and injustice that come from being male in our society tend to draw comparison with these guys, and tend to draw these guys into the fray, coopting the attempt into another platform for their views.

I think anyone with common sense can tell the difference between when someone is talking about real men's issues and when someone is being a misogynistic (censored).

No reasonable person wonders why groups like AVFM get bashed. But when even the legitimate mens groups get the same treatment, that's what makes me frustrated.

edit: to expand on this, feminist Emma Watson (actress especially known for Harry Potter roles) gave a pro-feminist speech at the UN where she also bothered to mention men's issues, and based on some Tumblr and other internet activity, it seems a lot of feminists didn't appreciate her also taking the time out to mention men's issues. And that's the very thing I'm tired of.

 

[Evie]

Which "legitimate men groups"? It's hard to be sure where we disagree (if at all) when I'm not sure which one you're talking about.

 

[BvBPL]

Promise Keepers.

(not actually Promise Keepers, Promise Keepers is simply the funniest "legitimate mens group" (sic) I can readily think of)

(also, it is after two in the morning and I type this after reviewing the rules of federal court so my sense of humor may be off)

(that having been said, I do think that Promise Keepers is still the funniest "legitimate mens group" (sic) around)

(anyone disputing that is welcome to provide names of funnier "legitimate mens groups" (sic) to me)

(just write to
Funny Legitimate Mens Groups (sic)
PO BOX 43587
Walla Walla Washington)

(please include a self-addressed stamped envelope if you'd like a response)

(I just checked the Wikipedia page for Walla Walla Washington, and, boy howdy, was I disappointed. I wanted to find out why so many organizations had their national post boxes in Walla Walla Washington. Besides it being a fun name to say, of course. Try it: "Walla Walla Washington." As the double ewes carry from your tongue to your lips like a sweet caress you can imagine how formative hearing about sending letters to Walla Walla Washington was on my misspent youth in front of the MTV. No VH1 for me, mind you, at least not until we moved and the new cable company offered Pop Up Video. Anyway, the Wikipedia page for Walla Walla Washington wastes itself on the contemporary Walla Walla Washington of the Internet years and pays no mind its glorious past of being mentioned on national TV every fifteen minutes.)

(seriously, the Wikipedia page reads like an ad for the town)

 

[Tycho Brahe]

I'm male (and white) and I consider myself a feminist.

Feminism isn't about hating men. Not the way I see it. It's about hating patriarchal power structures. Not all (white) men benefit from the patriarchal society, but that doens't invalidade the criticism against it.

Sure, you can find some crazy militant lesbians, if you cherry pick around your college campus, but that proves nothing. It only proves that you would like to silence the criticisms against the patriarchal structures.

Which "legitimate men groups"? It's hard to be sure where we disagree (if at all) when I'm not sure which one you're talking about.

I'm asking the same question.

My impression of the "mens advocates" is that they are more concerned about silencing femism that about advocating mens issues.