When did feminism go completely crazy?

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Uh...that's a joke, right?

A Promise Keeper is committed to building strong marriages and families through love, protection, and Biblical values.

I can't imagine why feminist would feel that a group that encourage men to dedicate themselves to "mariages founded in Biblical values" is possibly just sort of kind of a potential issue.

I mean, it's not like we're talking about the most notable monument to patriarchal values in western culture.
 
When they're older? Maybe.

When they're in 1st or 2nd grade? "Awww! That just means he likes you and doesn't know how to express it!"

Equally, it's probably the right time to say 'hold up Jonny, you don't touch people if they don't want you to' - if everyone laughs and says how cute and cheeky it is, that's already creating a positive association which might develop into something less pleasant down the line.
 
Equally, it's probably the right time to say 'hold up Jonny, you don't touch people if they don't want you to' - if everyone laughs and says how cute and cheeky it is, that's already creating a positive association which might develop into something less pleasant down the line.

uhhh.....yes?
 
Men literally believe they can touch women however they like without their consent? I find this hard to believe, and if it were true, there would be a hell of a lot more men in jail.
Some men actually do believe this. And yeah, they absolutely do not listen when they're at first politely asked not to touch, or later when they're told not to touch. They may not intend to do harm, but even things like touching someone's arm, shoulder, hand, etc. are actions men should not do when the woman makes it plain that she doesn't want him to, and when they continue to do them, it's obvious that they have zero respect for the woman's personal boundaries.


Oh, my. Look what just came in my morning newsfeed from cbc.ca:

cbc.ca said:
John Key, New Zealand PM, apologizes for tugging on server's ponytail
Anonymous server threatened to hit PM John Key after he persisted despite warning

New Zealand's Prime Minister John Key has apologized to a café worker who said he'd repeatedly pulled her ponytail when he visited the café near his home over a period of months, even after she'd told him to stop.

The worker wrote an anonymous post Wednesday on The Daily Blog website, saying Key began pulling her hair last year during his successful re-election campaign and continued the behaviour through late March. At first, she wrote, she didn't say anything as she thought Key was probably trying to be "playful and jolly."

Eventually, she wrote, she told Key's security detail she didn't like it and later told Key "No" repeatedly and wagged her finger at him. When he pulled her hair again on a subsequent visit, she said, she told him to stop "or I will actually hit you soon."

"I really didn't like it," the worker wrote. "I felt powerless and tormented and I stepped out the back and I cried frustrated tears."

The worker said Key came back soon after the last incident with two bottles of wine from his own vineyard and gave them to her, saying "This is for you, sorry, I didn't realize."

Key's office issued a statement Wednesday saying he regularly visits the café with his wife and has a good relationship with the staff there.

"His actions were intended to be light-hearted," the statement said. "It was never his intention to make her feel uncomfortable and he has apologized to her."

Source.

So... a politician repeatedly pulls a woman's hair after she tells him to stop, and he thinks a couple of bottles of wine are going to make it all okay? :huh:

Nonsense. More than anything, the same men who believe they *aren't* entitled to women are the ones less likely to think such entitlement is a common belief to begin with (me being a prime example, I've literally never cat-called a woman in my life).
Then that puts you ahead of even a pet cockatiel my mother had once. She decided to go to the beach, and took the bird with her (in his cage). So there they were, sitting on the beach at the lake, and just as a couple of young women walked by in bikinis, the bird let out a wolf-whistle. Considering that my mother wasn't sitting near anyone else and there was no man with her, it created an awkward situation for a few seconds.

Yeah, in some cases it could be friendly? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75aX9mlipiY
Wow. Well, of course he got all kinds of attention. I mean, look at that tight T-shirt and strut. He was literally asking for it, right?

The thing is, this video is not the same thing as normal, off-camera life. It's a performance. And consider the fact that he was being filmed. Unless the person doing the filming was completely unobtrusive, some people are drawn to cameras, because they want to be part of whatever is going on.

I might be a tad more sympathetic if he hadn't done the "air quotes" stuff. :huh:

Not paying attention to what never happens while I'm around? Actually, I take that back, with one exception. My coworker is a all-around good guy with the singular flaw that he keeps on pointing out when a female customer has a "nice ass". But other than that one guy, I haven't had any of my other guy friends behave in that way. Or if they are, they aren't doing it with me so I'm oblivious.
...
What the hell do you want my to do? Believe something that I'm not seeing? And if I did see it I would not promote such behavior. In fact I'll go as far to say I would try to discourage it. With my coworker I simply ignore him when he tries to get my attention in that way, because trying to get in a fight with him isn't worth it since I work with him which would hurt me in the long run. But if some random dude did that with me, yeah I'd tell him to piss off.
Next time he makes that comment, I might be inclined to act surprised and say, "I didn't see her ride in on a donkey."

My eyes are a tired for reading long articles, but that story is familiar to me. Isn't that the thing where one dude simply asked a woman to have coffee in his room and then she called it 'harassment'? Asking a woman out (once) isn't harassment. If I'm not wrong (please correct me if I am) didn't that guy not even say anything sexual that actually would be harassment such as "nice boobs" or whatever? Isn't this the thing where literally all he did was ask her out? How's that harassment? If I'm right about this, Dawkins was right to call her out for whining.
It's not what he said. It's the circumstances. An elevator at 4 a.m. is not an appropriate time to ask a woman to have coffee in a hotel room. I understand completely why she was upset, since an invitation like that often has absolutely nothing to do with coffee and everything to do with sex. Any woman would be prudent to turn down such an "invitation" and get away ASAP.

Sheesh, I was one of the late-night partiers at the science fiction conventions back in the '80s and early '90s, but there is no way in hell I'd go to some guy's room at that hour, and he'd have to be crazy to even ask. As it is, I spent half the night at Noncon VI trying to fend off some jerk who thought that just because I complimented him on his costume (he won in his division in the bacchanal), it meant I wanted to go to bed with him.

So the both of them overreacted, I guess Dawkins and her have a lot in common. Perhaps he should ask her out.
She was not wrong to feel creeped out. And Dawkins is married. :huh:
 
Searching for new evidence to support this claim

He's a racist, sexist philistine.

I browsed through the articles & links within them provided by

Wait, people still defend known dickhead Richard Dawkins on charges of being a dickhead?

and still didn't find any of his comments not to be true in some degree so this

Everybody hates Dawkins.

is clearly false; I still like Dawkins.
I can agree that how he says things isn't always PC but that has more to do with the weird PC bounds than Dawkins himself. I also agree with the sentiment that he occasionally says things that are meant to annoy some people but that I can understand - it must be frustrating to try to convince people that the Earth really isn't only 6-10 000 years old & stuff like that so I'm pretty much agreeing with Valka on all cases but this

An elevator at 4 a.m. is not an appropriate time to ask a woman to have coffee in a hotel room. I understand completely why she was upset, since an invitation like that often has absolutely nothing to do with coffee and everything to do with sex. Any woman would be prudent to turn down such an "invitation" and get away ASAP.

got me curious, why not?

I assume that's still about the time night clubs close in many places so it's probably a fairly common scenario after all and even if the question was more direct what's the problem? A no is still a no so apart from possible discomforth no harm done and in some cases I'd still assume a positive response regardless of the question being veiled or direct. Single people 4 in the morning are known to seek company.
 
got me curious, why not?

I assume that's still about the time night clubs close in many places so it's probably a fairly common scenario after all and even if the question was more direct what's the problem? A no is still a no so apart from possible discomforth no harm done and in some cases I'd still assume a positive response regardless of the question being veiled or direct. Single people 4 in the morning are known to seek company.

4AM in a closed elevator is the sort of scenario predators choose (unmonitored, no escape). Now you may know you're not a predator but theres no excuse to force a woman to smile and decline politely while surreptitiously reaching into her pocket to slip her car keys through her knuckles.
 
As a (non-white) man, I don't feel threatened by feminism at all. I just don't understand why relatively well-off men would whine so much about it. For the longest time, women were treated poorly in society. Just because they've gained relatively even footing in many areas since not too long ago doesn't mean you get to complain incessantly every time you feel they are getting a bit uppity. Like white people complaining about racial equality activists, I see it as contravening the "Don't be a dick" rule.
 
Y'know, there back in the '70s and '80s, there was a genuine attempt to start up a progressive men's movement. I sometimes wonder why it never got off the ground, given that the issues it hoped to address were very real, and have only become more glaring with time.

Well, you can't: A Progressive men's movement is a contradictio in terminis. That's also why MRA's are doomed to fail, because they superimpose progressive, feminist language over men's issues. Let me explain why that doesn't work: In the past, institutions like marriage augmented the power of men, though these existed not for the sake of promoting the interests of men, rather, for the proliferation of the polities that enforced them. Only certain particularly stupid feminists see a war between men and women which never existed until recent times. MRA's carbon copied that particular view.

One can say that feminism split into two competing schools of thought: The women vs. men school represented by figures like Dworkin and the women vs. institutions school represented by figures such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The latter does not seek to repudiate the very essence of masculinity as prejudicial to women's interests. A progressive men's movement would require entrenched institutions aligned with traditionalism that favours women. Such doesn't exist AFAIK. This ain't Dragon Age.
 
A progressive men's movement would require entrenched institutions aligned with traditionalism that favours women.

Why is that?

Edit: Oh, I get it now. You're saying a progressive mens movement would require entrenched institutions to oppose, not that it would have to utilize them somehow.

A bizarrely narrow definition of progressive then.
 
How is that narrow? Progressiveness is defined by its opposition to entrenched systems.
 
4AM in a closed elevator is the sort of scenario predators choose (unmonitored, no escape). Now you may know you're not a predator but theres no excuse to force a woman to smile and decline politely while surreptitiously reaching into her pocket to slip her car keys through her knuckles.

Oh, there's definitely no reason to force a smile. Very true. But I would hope we don't start teaching women the sort of trigger control and profiling that we teach our cops. Those underclass males out in public are !!dangerous!!

Uh...that's a joke, right?



I can't imagine why feminist would feel that a group that encourage men to dedicate themselves to "mariages founded in Biblical values" is possibly just sort of kind of a potential issue.

I mean, it's not like we're talking about the most notable monument to patriarchal values in western culture.

Just because there are some backwards fossils that use their religion to justify their backwardness not an excuse for you to so categorize them. There are plenty of great husbands I know, dedicated to empowering their spouses and children that are dedicated to their marriages founded in Biblical values, brushing them off as "Dur. Slaves to the Patriarchy." is about as smart as "anything with teats wants to have the sex with me."
 
Oh, there's definitely no reason to force a smile. Very true. But I would hope we don't start teaching women the sort of trigger control and profiling that we teach our cops. Those underclass males out in public are !!dangerous!!

I'm not sure why you're rushing to show concern for the dude creeping in a decidedly non-social context.
 
I'm going to show concern for anyone out in public who is making what is perhaps a faux pas when the reaction is to prepare tools of violence(as per your example). We play that particular game hard here. Then again, it might not be a faux pas at all depending on who you are. Though, rushing? Really?
 
Yeah, really.

Alone in an elevator at 4am is not just a faux pas, because its the sort of thing a predator would do. Predators are indistinguishable in appearance from the Good Men that everyone claims to be, so accidentally acting like a predator is very intimidating.

When done intentionally intimidation can be a crime because it is the threat of violence. I'm not sure your priority in being concerned for the safety of horny dudes to try their luck on everything on two legs is in line with your consciously held beliefs.
 
"Because it's the sort of thing a predator would do."

It's also the sort of thing friendly people do.
It's also the sort of thing friendly people highly successful at dating do.
It probably correlates with social appearance and attractiveness, but correlation, but of course, is not causation.
I don't have to think somebody needs to be whatever a "Good Man" is to be concerned if the appropriate reaction is to ready violence if they stray into the nebulous territory of looking dangerous. I've heard this "I want to go home to my family and kids" bullcrap for too many decades to be automatically sold when somebody dresses up the same sentiment in oh so baby fine wool.
 
Friendly people don't accost random women in elevators.

Maybe if men want this "token voice" in feminism, they should learn to put the well-being and, yes, even the comfort of women ahead of their damn pride.
 
Define accost for me again?
 
This thread makes me despair of the human race.

You have a few rational people being talked down to by a mountain of rubbish with logical fallacies of every type.

They have (attacking the person fallacy) ether against men in general or veiled against posters for their views.

You have so many examples of fallacy that I would be here a while and would be an exercise in futility to point them all out.

I feel like slapping citation please, on over half of the posts but what would be the point?

Noone has even justified how Richard Dawkins is Sexist and Racist among other things. He was pointing out a feminist saying absolutely crazy things. (they may in a few cases have attempted to do so but fall far short of getting anywhere close)

This thread OP proclaims feminists as crazy, alot of the posts here have certainly proven the correlation I would say.

This thread makes me worried for democracy, the level of irrationality displayed scares me.

We will soon be living in a demo-crazy or just a crazy state if this continues.
 
This thread makes me despair of the human race.

You have a few rational people being talked down to by a mountain of rubbish with logical fallacies of every type.

They have (attacking the person fallacy) ether against men in general or veiled against posters for their views.

You have so many examples of fallacy that I would be here a while and would be an exercise in futility to point them all out.

I feel like slapping citation please, on over half of the posts but what would be the point?

Noone has even justified how Richard Dawkins is Sexist and Racist among other things. He was pointing out a feminist saying absolutely crazy things. (they may in a few cases have attempted to do so but fall far short of getting anywhere close)

This thread OP proclaims feminists as crazy, alot of the posts here have certainly proven the correlation I would say.

This thread makes me worried for democracy, the level of irrationality displayed scares me.

We will soon be living in a demo-crazy or just a crazy state if this continues.

ummmm kay.
 
"Because it's the sort of thing a predator would do."

It's also the sort of thing friendly people do.
It's also the sort of thing friendly people highly successful at dating do.
It probably correlates with social appearance and attractiveness, but correlation, but of course, is not causation.
I don't have to think somebody needs to be whatever a "Good Man" is to be concerned if the appropriate reaction is to ready violence if they stray into the nebulous territory of looking dangerous. I've heard this "I want to go home to my family and kids" bullcrap for too many decades to be automatically sold when somebody dresses up the same sentiment in oh so baby fine wool.

Unconvinced - I think if somebody twice my size asked me in a lift, late at night, whether I fancied sleeping with them, I'd probably be at least a little bit worried. Not that I'd be being violent, but I don't think many of us would have the thought too far from our minds.
 
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