When to use SE instead of CE?

[Zionel]

Got a couple questions regarding SE and GP farm.

I have never used Specialist economy. CE has always been my style of playing. I'm currently on monarch, but i'll have a go at emperor soon, and i've read that SE is the only way to go, especially when u are not financial. I have read alot about how to run a SE economy lately, but i just don't know when to use it instead of CE.

Do you always use SE on emperor and up?
Do you need lots of food resources / grasslands to make a SE city?
Do you go hybrid, wich means some CE cities and come SE cities, or are all except your production cities SE?
What about when you got the financial trait, is SE still the way to go, or would CE be better?

Lastly, how early do you start making a GP farm? Personally i never make one until the specialists from great liberary are gone, that city seems to create more GP pts than my GP farm early on anyways. Is this too late in your opinion?

 

[cabert]

I have my own theory for that.

At lower levels, your cities can grow big without hitting happiness and health caps.
At higher levels, it's not possible to grow past size 4 for quite a while.

So in the beginning, at higher levels, you won't work cottages anyway, you will work the specials (resources) or mines if gunning to a wonder or rushing units. So it's not efficient to build cottages you won't work!
You're not really running a SE, you're just working your best tiles, and those aren't cottages.

Then the best strats are those that either get you the happiness to work more tiles (including representation from pyramids or HR with monarchy via oracle, or capturing neighbours' capitals loaded with resources) or to live with those few population points and still give you techs and production (scientists for lightbulbing and whipping for production).

It's not so much about which is better, but about which is doable

 

[oyzar]

You can do fine on emproer and imortal with CE as long as you do some lightbulbing for trading.

 

[Oggums]

A solid ecomony is going to utilize both cottages and specialists.

I'm still trying to figure out what the hell people mean when they say SE vs. CE. I assume when you say it's a SE, that it means you're going to be on some sort of anti-cottage kick. But, you have to pay for your specialist cities somehow, so why people would refuse to utilize cottages is beyond me.

For a short game (e.g. pangea domination), merchants would be fine, but if you're in it for the long haul (e.g. continents space race), then you'd be crazy not to work cottages.

 

[HiroHito]

they dont refuse to make cottages, they just prefer to do something else, farms for example

 

[Oggums]

Christ, that's my whole point. If they aren't refusing to build cottages, then they're obviously helping to finance the "SE" with cottages (i.e. you aren't playing an no-cottage variant game). So why are they even calling it a "SE" at?

If it's not one or the other, then why would anyone need to argue the one vs. the other?

 

[Ankh-f-n-Khonsu]

A solid ecomony is going to utilize both cottages and specialists.

I'm still trying to figure out what the hell people mean when they say SE vs. CE. I assume when you say it's a SE, that it means you're going to be on some sort of anti-cottage kick. But, you have to pay for your specialist cities somehow, so why people would refuse to utilize cottages is beyond me.

For a short game (e.g. pangea domination), merchants would be fine, but if you're in it for the long haul (e.g. continents space race), then you'd be crazy not to work cottages.

I gather some people cottage their capital to take advantage of Bureaucracy, and maintain that as their sole source of income. Others manage to skip even that, and build exactly zero cottages. I have yet to read somebody's report of pillaging masses of cottages when taking over land from another empire, so strict SE players do eventually end up with them. On the other hand, the AI caters to SE players anyway by building a ridiculous number of farms.

You speak in a lot of absolutes, but the experience of plenty of players, as evidenced in messages throughout the forum, suggests that your assessment is wrong. Have you tried playing a strict SE game? It might help you resolve the things you say are beyond you.

 

[Oggums]

Have you tried playing a strict SE game? It might help you resolve the things you say are beyond you.

I must have forgotten what it was that is beyond me and I needed to resolve.

Could you refresh my memory?

 

[Galileo44]

I always run CE. I just can't get into the SE mindset well enough to play it effectively. Plus i believe that CE is better, unless you have Pyramids and high food cities. I don't speak for anyone else however, so don't attack me for attacking the SE. Right now I am playing the Immortal game that Snaaty set up with Gandhi and am about to get to liberalism doing quite well with a CE and a monster GP farm.

 

[Oggums]

By the way, when did we stop calling it "cottage spam"?

 

[BCLG100]

when some genius worked out that CE is easier to type.

Also i always associated cottage spam with the worker-settler-worker build queues rather than just building cottages and normal expansion.

SE- i predominanatly cottage my capital- this supports the rest of my empire whilst i run at lower levels of tech but more specialists.

 

[Ankh-f-n-Khonsu]

I must have forgotten what it was that is beyond me and I needed to resolve.

Could you refresh my memory?

Of course, glad to help:

But, you have to pay for your specialist cities somehow, so why people would refuse to utilize cottages is beyond me.

 

[Compromise]

I still have a mostly CE mentality, but I'd like to try a SE for a change just to test it out. Of course, these things can be more fun (and educational) if lots of us try it.

Anybody want to roll up a game and we can all give it a shot? Maybe play until 1AD or so and then post and compare notes?

 

[Oggums]

Of course, glad to help:

I don't know why I'm even responding, but Ankh, the reason I say it's "beyond me" is not because I do not understand the benefits of specialists. It's not about something I'm missing. It's about something the anti-cottage gamer is missing.

 

[Mutineer]

I don't know why I'm even responding, but Ankh, the reason I say it's "beyond me" is not because I do not understand the benefits of specialists. It's not about something I'm missing. It's about something the anti-cottage gamer is missing.

anti-cottage gamer? Man, you need to check your head.

From begining of Civ4 everyone on this board were only for building cottages. Answer for everything was: Buld more cottages.
It took me more then year to prove that different strats are effective and more then CE in sertan cases. Finally people start to undestand that Civ is richer then anly coottages game. There is different ways to play and really, on higher levels you can still win knowing only cottages spamm start, but you will be handicaped. Cottages spamm is not sutable for every situation and as dificulaty increase it become less then optimum more and more often.

 

[DaveMcW]

Is there anything better than cottage spam with 1 GP farm?

 

[Mutineer]

Yes Dawe, there is.

 

[kniteowl]

I generally play cottage economy when I'm too lazy to micro-manage...SE requires quite A LOT of micro-management, I've heard it's a lot easier with Blake's Better AI mod, in the City screen you just force Assign 1 Specialist, hit the macro-manage Great People button at the bottom of the screen and the Governor does the rest.

Generally speaking, It's best play SE when Philosophical, a trait that gives you 100% more GPP. Other traits that have synergy with the SE are Industrious, Creative, Expansive and Organized.

I've been having an Idea of playing a SE with Augustus, Cre/Org and trying to manipulate and maximise the Roman UB, which gives you an extra 25% GPP.

 

[Galileo44]

Spiritual is also good with SE for switching to slavery for a few turns to whip out units and buildings before going back to CS. I just though of a very useful element of SE which I have not seen before on this forum. No matter what your commerce rate is, the culture/lux slider gives 1 . Therefore, during war, it costs the SE runner almost nothing to deal with WW, while it drastically reduces the science of the CE.

 

[DaveMcW]

Yes Dawe, there is.

Nah, impossible.