Where did I go wrong?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Krick19, Oct 8, 2008.

  1. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I'll have a run when I get home tonight after school (2 tests! :cry:) and work. Jeez, that's almost 11 hours from now, eh. Well regardless - you have to find a way to up :) cap long before then. There's a couple ways to do it, simplest being monarchy but I often sell out on a late-ish religion (like confuc. or tao) if I realize I don't have a lot of :) so that I can get some more. Also AI religion spread can really help with :) via temples especially if you run that religion and build 2 temples (as needed). Monasteries in a bureaucracy capitol or other science powerhouses are pretty money too.
     
  2. Krick19

    Krick19 Prince

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    Woo, thanks guys! I switched to full SE mode, got the Mids, and Confucianism! I'm also quickly getting up more and more scientists. Hopefully I can win the game now.
     
  3. Bleys

    Bleys Deity

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    Heres the key Krick. Dont expect to be in the lead, either in points or techs, because you just wont be. Get your Libraries up, sooner than you "usually" would if possible, and grab your land. Focus on high food sites if you can, so you can chop a Library and get those Scientists up.

    With most non-CRE leaders, I ALWAYS start a Monument and whip it the very turn I hit 2-pop. Sometimes, though, with an EXP leader, I will start a Granary, stick the Monument in front when its about to hit 2-pop, and try to time a chop/whip combo that finishes the Monument and Granary back-to-back. Its not as hard or complicated as it sounds.

    I have found that the faster you get those libraries up, and forcing yourself to run those scientists, the faster you will start to recover from the economic downturn of that initial expansion phase, whether you expanded by Settler or Axe. Get cottages up too, and force yourself to work them as well. Settle happiness resources that you can improve quickly too, getting room under the cap should help you try to work an extra cottage. Eventually, you should be able to start adjusting the slider back up, then gradually pulling the scientists to work tiles as you get them improved.
     
  4. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Didn't have time to read all of them, but one of them struck me.

    You founded your second city around 2800 BC...that is really early for a second city. Considering your answer that you had "a large of the continent to myself," it probably would have been better to grow your capital more. Consider growing your capital more and then build worker - settler - worker - settler - worker - settler and an escort somewhere in between.
     
  5. Ultimocrat

    Ultimocrat Warlord

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    As others have noted, this is really a key problem. Hereditary rule via Monarchy is often the best solution in the early game if you lack happiness resources. Since I also see wine in the far northeast, teching it earlier seems like a doubly good call.

    EDIT: Also, it would be nice to see more of the surrounding area, because lack of happiness resources could be a problem with your city placement (i.e. if there were a furs/silver site in the tundra, you should have prioritized it more).
     
  6. Gliese 581

    Gliese 581 Your average civ junkie

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    I played a little but I hadn't realised it was on epic. I can't fathom how I could stand those slow games now that I'm used to normal. :crazyeye:

    Anyhow it's a bit short certainly but I guess you'll get the idea.
    After looking over the land its clear that we have lots of food and little commerce. We also have stone nearby.
    I figure Pyramids ftw.

    I put in a city by Pacal to block him from the gems unfortunately I had to settle a suboptimal spot between it and my main empire since Pacal had a settler there and was 1 turn away from cutting me off.
    In any case I'm whipping alot to get settlers and workers.. two more cities are needed, one for the gems and one for the marble, then the priority is to run scientists everywhere.
     

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  7. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    @ Gliese: good move building on top of the stone, in retrospect its obvious but I didn't see it at the time. Not sure about settling the jungle (but you're a better player than I am so maybe its down to my inexperience).
     
  8. MkLh

    MkLh King

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    He is already building The Pyramids and if he gets them, Monarchy is useful only as a prerequisite to feudalism. :crazyeye:

    Btw. building Pyramids in that map seems a good idea to me. There is stone and space to expand. Just build The Pyramids, revolt to representation, expand to 9-10 cities, whip libraries, put scientists in almost all cities and you can keep up with Monarch's teching speed for a while even when the slider is 0%. Building of the Pyramids just should have been started earlier cause now there's a real danger of losing them. :(
     
  9. Gliese 581

    Gliese 581 Your average civ junkie

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    Heh you're not fooling me I know you're a much better player than you claim to be. ;)
    As for the jungle: I'm not sure either to be honest, We might be inviting conflict with Sury instead of leading him against Pacal. There is a nice rice/3gems city to claim though, the question is, is it really worth it?
    I'm usually a very greedy player so I went for it. :lol:
     
  10. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    Erm I trust you'll find the time eventually, you just asked him an @zz load of questions... and he answered them!
     
  11. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Here's a version I had. Maintenance is a pain, I've cornered most of the land, and have 1 or 2 great scientists eeking by in research.
     
  12. Cashew

    Cashew Prince

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    From the screenie I see a couple of problems (didn't bother to check the save).
    1) Your capital should have been planted on the plains hill North West of where you actually planted.
    2) Vijay should have been planted on the plains hill 2 tiles west.
    3) Your whole south is screwed up. I can't even suggest minor changes in your planting because I would have divided up the resources and hills much differently and had the spacing much different as well.
    4) Monument, monument, library, pyramids, ALL WORTHLESS.
    5) Vijay is building a worker but you are not chopping it.
    6) Too many unchopped trees and improved tiles that you can't even use.
    7) You are teching code of laws.
    8) You're making a great scientist.
    9) You seem to have no metal yet you are doing nothing to remedy this situation.
     
  13. Krick19

    Krick19 Prince

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    Apologies for being harsh, but I'm disinclined to accept advice from someone who doesn't explain their reasoning, and who is a bit rude.
     
  14. Cashew

    Cashew Prince

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    Lol, you think I'm giving the advice to help myself? Doesn't hurt my playing ability if you ignore what I have to say, it hurts yours. Feel free to accept or ignore the following:

    1) The seafood had nothing to do with it. I only noticed it after I gave the recommendation. It's a good extra, but hardly the big reason for the plant. You should have planted there because it gives you a 2 hammer cap which gives your early game expansion an edge, and it would allow you to split your food. The corn could have gone to supporting another city. Instead you are not working it, and it is going to waste. Bombay is too far from your cap and some of the land in between the two cities is also going to waste. You wouldn't have had to make some of the crappy cities you did if you had just split your food among tighter spaced cities.
    2) I guess we're not counting corn as food anymore then.
    3) Yeah.
    4) Libraries help your teching not your cash. Besides, that library would give you about 1 extra gold in tech per turn (probably less). You would be better off building 3 chariots.
    5) Yet your workers are building a cottage that you can't use. You should have anticipated your worker build. Forward planning is crucial in Civ.
    6) Then make them your strong point. They are one of the most important aspects of the game.
    7) Courthouses would only slow you down more. Just look at how long it's taking you to build libraries. You need productive capacity more than espionage and lowered maintenance.
    8) Work a tile instead of a scientist. Again, this is a reason why you have so few units.
    9) This is why you shouldn't be building things like that library and a monument in your cap. That's just free chariots right there.
     
  15. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Took an early shot too.

    Spoiler :






    Didn't even play for early wonders. Basic worker techs then bronze then stuff like monarchy/code of laws. I ran scientists and put an academy in the capitol, and with horses barbs aren't much of an issue here.


    View attachment 191106
     
  16. CivCorpse

    CivCorpse Supreme Overlord of All

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    No. Very bad idea. This loses the fresh water healthbonus and is one tile off the coast losing harbor health as well as condemning the water tiles to 1:food: 2:commerce: tiles forever. If he had knowledge of the clams then 1SE of the clams is a nice spot. 3 high food tiles and loads of hills for production.
    No again. A little over lap is ok, but not that much with the capital. Where the city is now is a nice placement.
    Southern cities are placed to block Pacal. Though agra is not well placed and is not worth the gold to keep it.
    The monuments are for the cultural boost to work the full BFC. Though I usually build something else until 1 turn from pop2 then build the monument one turn and whip it the moment I hit pop 2. The library in paliputara is good for two reasons. It will enable the food rich city to run scientists and it helps with the cultural pressure from Pacal for the pigs. Though you will probably lose them eventually. Did you see the tasty barbarian worker 1N of palipatura? gobble him up with the garrison warrior Delhi on the other hand does NOT need a monument. Have it build those chariots you wanted. Though Delhi should have been building the Mids rather than Bombay. With it's higher happy cap it can work more mines. Switch a citizen off of the pigs in bombay and stick him/her on a plains mine. Starve away one unhappy citizen. Then other is close to being happy again. You can get the mids in 24 turns. It is only 350 bc on monarch. There is a very good chance you will get the Mids. NOT building the mids when you have stone and a Philo leader on Monarch is bad bad advice. Even if you miss them next turn you 250 gold which will buy you a lot of time for research.
    It is better to build the worker one turn then whip it the next to get rid of the unhappy face.
    The tiles give the flexibilty to build something or to generate commerce as the moment dictates. I would save those forests for chopping out courthouses since CoL is being teched
    And it's a great idea for a couple of reasons. Confuscism is still unfounded so he may get a potential shrine city plus one more temple for happiness. He is building the mids so representation makes extra specialists a big boost. even if he misses the mids and does not found a religion, He can still run merchants to generate gold and maybe a GM to bulb currency. Philosophical and the mids practically screams for CoL. And of course courthouses. With a courthouse and a library he can run a spy and 2 scientists. That is 18 GPP. If he gets a GS that is good for a bulb/academy or settling. If he gets a Great spy he can infiltrate Pacal and steal a pile of techs. Techs are cheap to steal early in the game. And of course the lower city costs are nice.
    And this is bad? Settled it is 6bpt (nine with mids) for the entire game. And academy this early is a LOT of extra beakers. Especially since he is philo and can generate a lot more to settle. With rep and an academy each GS is over 15bpt with just a library
    Should he use world builder to get copper? or spend 20 turns teching IW? Maybe he should use chariots to attack Pacal and his spearman UU? Build chariots to up the power ranking then walls. Walls cost nothing to maintain. the after you have CoL hunting and archery before iron working. IW first is a gamble. If you have no iron then you still have nothing to build defenders with while you tech HBR and construction.

    It's not as bad as it looks Krick. The unhappy citizens are a major drag on your economy. They eat your food for free and city costs are based in part on population. Lose the red faces. You're playing a pretty good game at this point.
     
  17. Cashew

    Cashew Prince

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    2 hammer starts are far superior to 2 health especially when he doesn't need extra health in that city to begin with.

    I don't see how it matters that there's overlap when he isn't using half his tiles anyways. It's a better city in the short term. In the long term he would need several things which he still does not have (like Monarchy) to make it more beneficial to spread the city further.

    If he had built his cities right he could have just killed Pacal instead of worrying about "blocking" him.

    I have no problem with slaving workers. In fact, in general Krick should have been slaving much more than he was.

    Reasoning like this will slow his expansion and military production and prevent him from destroying neighboring civs. For one, he needs to concentrate on production. His need for commerce is about as non-existent as his military force. Again, it's a bit late in the game, but earlier on he should have been using the trees to chop workers and settlers. At this point chopping units is a weak benefit but he should still take that over some building that's not going to make a difference for another 50 turns.

    If he tried to do this in a multi-player someone would just attack him with 20 axes, and he would either get to watch his civ get dismantled or quit like a noob. Since this is single player and the AI is unbelievably incompetent, he can get away with a weak military, but it is still easier to conquer at least one of your neighbors and expand into their land then it is to try and get a lead building scientists and courthouses.
    Yeah it's bad. Slave units instead of wasting your time working for a minor tech lead. Course at the point in the game his screenie is at I would say his civ is probably doomed anyways. But for future reference he shouldn't use specialists when his cities can't even get above size 5.

    First, walls are noob. Building them is a sign that you've been getting your ass kicked and probably have little hope of mounting an offensive of any sort. Second, I always go IW before CoL because iron helps you kill people and code of laws helps people kill you. In fact, I will get Monarchy, Construction, Feudalism, and HB (not in that order) before I even consider CoL. Third, yeah he might not have iron, but it is improbable. Treating IW like it's some kind of gamble is an inane argument and I'll address the point no further.
     
  18. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Cashew: you seem to have strong views on how the game should be played which seem to be quite different to other posters' (including myself).
    Instead of us argueing the point interminably why don't you play and post your strategy, perhaps we'll be convinced by a demonstration.
     
  19. CivCorpse

    CivCorpse Supreme Overlord of All

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    No.



    Initial cities make up your core and should be placed for long term development. Monarchy is not that far off when you consider he is building the mids. Though Rep would be better.



    By the time he built those cities he knew he had no copper. So what exactly does he use to kill off Pacal? Chariots or HA's? Pacal has a resourceless spearman UU. He would butcher chariots or HA's. So once again...No




    see above for the mention of no metal to build units. What exactly is he going to be using to destroy these neighboring civs? And how exactly does he support all these cities and units when he is practically broke? And 350 is NOT late in the game. Most veteran players shoot for around 6 cities by 1ad. He has 6 before then. And the buildings he is building will have a large impact well before 50 turns.



    Well strategies on SP and MP are different. Using an MP strategy in SP is about as ineffective as using an SP strategy in MP. Without copper he would be rushed by a stack of axes and spears anyway. And again, what is he using to conquer his neighbors? Chariots and HA's? And how does he support this newly conquered empire?


    Actually his civ is not even close to doomed. I played the game until about 500AD. And quickly and casually at that. He is in great shape. And what units should he be slaving? Chariots and HA's to die on Holkan spear points? Gee then he will have a bunch of outdated units and a big tech deficit. And running those specialists is going to get him the techs he needs to get above size 5. Monarchy and construction gets him HR and colloseums. He can trade Monarchy for techs and use catapults with HA's to take cities. THEN he should slave units. Units cost money to maintain. That drops his research rate. Pacal is a strong techer. @ the current research rate by the time Ghandi gets IW and settles/hooks up the iron, builds swords and axes and invades Pacal will have longbows and maces and such.



    Walls are not always noob. They are a maintenance free way to up your power rating a bit when you lack the needed techs or resouces to build decent units. I am not a noob. i have been playing Civ since CivI. I have played hundreds of games. There are times when attacking your opponent is not the best path. there are times I have had no copper/iron/horses. Walls have kept me alive while I frantically teched construction for cats and fuedalism for LB's.
    The fact that you ALWAYS do something shows you haven't played enough games to realise that there is no "always". If you have copper early then you rush with axes and tech CoL so you can afford to keep the cities you take. If you start on an isolated landmass then who are you going to kill with your shiny swords?
    When you move up in levels you are going to find that CoL becomes a must have because city maintenance is crippling without it.
     
  20. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    HAs can and have put Pacal down before (in force they are quite strong and will beat down even more tech advanced opposition). However, a HA rush (or any rush given no copper) is suboptimal here. There's a lot of land to settle peacefully so blocking pacal isn't all that bad...12 cities peacefully anyone? Let Pacal develop all that jungle land, THEN take it.
     

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