Which civilisation had the biggest impact on history?

[Kyriakos]

^I am not nationalist either. I am imperialist (as in Byzantine Empire etc).
I don't care if there are Bulgarians in the Empire, as long as they raise the bicephal eagle and not their stupid lion.

Spoiler :

Joking. Put down that Axe, Eugene..

 

[Gucumatz]

Poland vs. Catalunya. Seems about worthy for this thread

 

[Domen]

Redneck civilization had the biggest impact, cuz there slavery existed longer than elsewhere.

Redneck civilization and especially both Carolinas.

Moderator Action: Infracted for trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Tee Kay]

Gucumatz is Mayan...

 

[Domen]

Mayans also had big impact. Especially when they abandoned their cities and returned to jungle.

 

[H4run]

Spoiler :

Joking. Put down that Axe, Eugene..

Spoiler :

careful with that axe Eugene

 

[Perfection]

USA #1!

 

[Gucumatz]

Mayans also had big impact. Especially when they abandoned their cities and returned to jungle.

I think you are joking, but for the benefit of my terrible ability to detect sarcasm/jokes I will go ahead and say this: People never "returned" to the jungle. They moved on to different city states. The last Maya city state was conquered in 1697 right next to some famous tourist destinations like Tikal today. The cities that are particularly well known for tourists today are classical era or even ancient era cities that eventually had their power fade and were surpassed by other cities/kingdoms. Its a bit like digging up the old city of Knossos or pointing out Ithaca and saying that was all of Greek civilization ever and never bothering to look at Athens or its existence. The northern city states of Guatemala and Belize had largely waned in influence as the Southern highland city states grew in power.

I am half Kaqchikel, we had been in essence vassals of the Quiche. Both us and the Quiche were southern kingdoms that owned several city states across the highlands both through bloodlines and conquest. The northern cities of the Yucatan are typically more famous, but sites like Tikal declined after like 700-800 A.D. Not unlike say the era of the river basin kingdom city states (like El Mirador which has the biggest Pyramid in the world found to date, larger than the Great Pyramid of Giza and this pyramid was built ~ 700 B.C.E. - the city itself has a city infrastructure larger than modern day Los Angeles). There were cities all across the Mayan world, pretty much every other hill you will find remains of former cities that rose/fell naturally over time.
==============

And also, yea our people were better than the tribal Europeans just killing and slaughtering each other. Things like math, soap, hygiene were foreign - including you Poles for millennia. And since humans got to the Americas 20,000 years later after humans got to Europe, honestly I can't say I am impressed with what little the European legacy has been able to accomplish. If we had arrived in our lands at the same time as you all, we would have interstellar travel, food for all, and know how to make actual guacamole - you all really did jack with your headstart borrowing entirely from the middle-east.

 

[Domen]

The last Maya city state was conquered in 1697

Yes I know about this. That was Tayasal. BTW - independent Inca state also survived until 1572.

People never "returned" to the jungle. They moved on to different city states

But those different city states occupied a much smaller territory - only Yucatan Peninsula.

So it rather looks like some cities were abandoned, while several other ones survived.

And most people from those abandoned cities moved to jungle, not to those cities on Yucatan.

Things like math, soap, hygiene were foreign - including you Poles for millennia.

You must be joking or showing lack of knowledge on other cultures. Among Slavic people (so also Poles) hygiene was very important.

An excerpt from the description of Slavic (mostly West Slavic) realms by Jewish merchant and traveller Abraham ben Jacob (10th century AD):

Their women, when married, do not commit adultery. But a girl, when she falls in love with some man or other, will go to him and quench her lust. If a husband marries a girl and finds her to be a virgin, he says to her, `If there were something good in you, men would have desired you, and you would certainly have found someone to take your virginity’. Then he sends her back, and frees himself from her. The lands of the Slavs are the coldest of all. When the nights are moonlit and the days clear, the most severe frosts occur. The wells and ponds are covered with a hard shell of ice, as if made of stone. When people breathe, icicles form on their beards, as if made of glass. They have no stone bath-houses as such, but they do make use of wooden huts for bathing. They build a stone stove, on which, when it is heated, they pour water. They hold a bunch of grass in their hands, and waft the steam around. Then their pores open, and all excess matter escapes from their bodies. This hut is called al-istba. Their kings travel in great carriages, on four wheels. From the corners of the carriage a cradle is slung on chains, so that the passenger is not shaken by the motion. They prepare similar carriages for the sick and injured. The Slavs wage war with the Byzantines, with the Franks and Langobards, and with other peoples.

Specifically about Poland, Abraham ben Jacob wrote:

As far as the realm of Mesko is concerned, this is the most extensive of their lands. It produces an abundance of food, meat, honey, and fish. The taxes collected by the King from commercial goods are used for the support of his retainers. He keeps three thousand armed men divided into detachments. And provides them with everything they need, clothing, horses, and weapons.

There are some German and Arab descriptions of Slavic Pagan temples.

Here is a German description by Thietmar of Merseburg (born 975 died 1018):

There is, in the land of the Redari, a gard triangular in shape and with three gates leading to the inside, called Radegost. (...) Two of the gates are always opened for the people who enter. The third one, from the East side, is the smallest one and opens to a small pathway that leads to a nearby fearsome-looking lake. Within the gard there is a single temple, built masterfully from wood and resting on the fundaments made of horns of wild animals. Its inner walls are adorned with the images of pagan gods and goddesses – which are, as one can notice by looking at them closely – sculptured wonderfully, from wood, while inside the chamber there are statues of gods, made by human hand, with helmets and armours – each with his own name engraved. The first one is called Svarozic, and he is the subject of a particular worship among the pagans. There are also many banners stored in there, which they never take, except for war expeditions, and then they are carried by foot warriors. For protection of all of this, the natives have appointed special priests.

====================================

I can't say I am impressed with what little the European legacy has been able to accomplish

It also depends in which period and in which region.

Anyway - funny how when the legacy of European wrongdoings is concerned, Poland is labelled as part of the same "evil club" with European colonizers of America such as Spain, England, France, etc. But when positive European achievements are concerned, then Poland suddenly moves away from Spain, England, France, etc. to a completely different "club" - Eastern Europe - which, allegedly, had nothing to do with them. But for wrongoings is equally responsible!

 

[Gucumatz]

Let me just point out when I was talking about the Kaqchikel or Quiche city states, I am not talking about the Yucatan or Peten. I am talking about the south.

And abandoned isn't a right term either. New cities emerged, others declined. If you look at the river basin where El Mirador was, the population in 1,000 B.C.E.-200 A.D. is estimated to have been like 4 times higher than the population of the "abandoned cities" of Tikal and other Peten, Yucatan, and Belize sites.

These cities declined too with evidence that population shifts led to the emergence of other cities (like the great classical cities, like Tikal)

When the classical cities declined, cities like Tayasal emerged - with population from the other sites logically too. And compare that to the growth in southern cities and western cities after the decline of the cities of Peten and the Yucatan, it becomes quite clear there were geopolitical shifts and agricultural shifts which led to the shifts in population. Cities like Tikal have some records on their stelae showing the ruling dynasty was floundering in the later years, which isn't that special really. In the time of the Spaniards you saw new city states being established/ended all the time as people moved or dynasties changed.

 

[Gucumatz]

And there were even cases on the historical record of cities declining and growing once again with changes in population. In the case of my ancestors, historically the primary city changed several times including during when the Spanish were present. When the Spaniards looted and burned Iximche the nobles moved to another city of ours which had been on the decline and caused a population boom that still lasts this day. It was considered a perfectly normal act

 

[Domen]

So it seems that alleged catastrophic decline of most of Mayan civilization already before European arrival is just a myth.

BTW - are there any reliable estimates on how much Mayan population declined between years 1500 and 1700?

 

[Gucumatz]

I don't really trust population estimates on anything regarding indigenous cultures here in the Americas. But it depends on where. You had the Lacadon jungles that were presumably less affected. The cities were more effected. I can't give you a good source sadly for population reduction with the Spaniards, but general estimates I see are 80-90% [I like certain topics, but I am sadly no historian myself in regards to this].

I have read accounts from people like Sahagun (the priest who wrote the Florentine Codex) that population loss was catastrophic across Mesoamerica - but generally it was a series of a wave of plagues rather than "a single plague"

 

[Traitorfish]

Yeah, you're generally looking about a century of decline before the population bottoms out and starts to recover. (I'm not sure why a century, but it holds surprisingly true across the Americas.)

 

[Gucumatz]

Things like math, soap, hygiene were foreign - including you Poles for millennia.

You must be joking or showing lack of knowledge on other cultures. Among Slavic people (so also Poles) hygiene was very important.

Yes I was joking.


Still pfft only 10th century AD? Bunch of primitive Europeans*









*I think we may have misunderstood each others jokes throughout so let me just say this is also a joke. I am half German anyhow, so I am half a stinking soapless barbarian just like you Poles

 

[TheLastOne36]

Poland is clearly the most civilized civilization in the world. We were the ones to introduce the fork to the French after all.

 

[Domen]

We were the ones to introduce the fork to the French after all.

I'm not sure if this story about fork is true. It might be a myth.

But don't worry, "we" introduced the Polish poulaines ("Polish shoes") to France, etc.:



And the Polish (popular among high-ranking nobility) delia coat to large part of Europe:



Polish fashion in that period was superior to French / Western leggings, buffonish sleeves, powdered & poshed & perfumed wigs, sissy costumes, etc.

They already had "gay" fashion long before granting rights to gays.

And in the 1700s that sissy French fashion became popular also in Poland... I suppose that was the reason for the decline and partitions.

 

[Absolution]

Sumer/Babylon/Assyria - 1 vote?

Oh dear....

 

[Domen]

As for Silesians in Poland. Unlike Catalans in Spain, most of them identify as a branch of the main ethnic group in the country (in this case Poles) rather than as a totally distinct ethnos. These who identify as "solely Silesians" rather than Poles-Silesians, live mostly in areas which belonged to Germany in period 1921 - 1939. While in this part of Upper Silesia which was Polish already in period 1921-1939, people identify as Poles. I posted data on this (2002, 2011 censuses) here:

http://historum.com/european-histor...ry-years-ca-1300-ca-1900-a-8.html#post1803341

 

[Azale]

I'm glad everyone gave this thread the chance it deserved.