Which FfH leader would run the most/least pleasent empire to live in?

[Psycho_Ivan]

I'd have to go for Sidar...

Plenty of good reasons to pick plenty of other good civilizations, but the pros for the Sidar appeal to me greatly.

 

[das]

That isn't true at all. Cassiel easily could act a a god, but he refuses to. He is ideologically opposed to being worshiped and would attempt to crush any cult built up around him if anyone tried to force others to follow it. Normally though, he'd discourage such actions though his own embarrassing behavior/public drunkenness. He set up a government in such a way that he would not have the power to control it. The Grigori military consists of voluntary, part time, poorly organized militias, who aren't well payed. Cassiel idealizes the yeoman farmer, and expects most the militiamen to be self sufficient. What payment they get comes from their local governments (the government is a rather feudal system where "feudal lords" are typically average farmers with no extra personal income, and the position is not hereditary), which I suppose could favor heroes and dragonslayers, but I don't think it has to, as they would be able to keep the fortunes they find in the dragons' lairs or win their money through gambling. Luonnatar are not supported by the government at all. Cassiel does not like the Luonnatar (much less pay them anything), even though he agrees with them on a lot of things, because he thinks they are fundamentally wrong in their notion that The One would want to be worshiped. The Grigori have freedom of religion and freedom to express your religious views, so long as no one ever uses force to impose these views on others. The Luonnatar are treated no differently than the followers of any other religion. Going to church, owning icons, and preaching are mocked, but never punished (although I imagine that church leaders teaching a prosperity gospel where those who give them their tithes are supposed to get some miracles in return would be prosecuted for fraud). The Grigori don't do anything to encourage immigration, they just don't prevent anyone who wants to live under their libertarian laws to come and join. They are not an especially greedy Randian society, as Cassiel recognized that that is the worship of the evil god Mammon. I've always considered the Grigori and the Elohim to be close allies. It seems to be that Immanuel Logos must be one of Cassiel's heroes, for abandoning his goddess and devoting his life to caring for the orphans of the godswar, regardless of what religion these orphans follow. The Grigori do not go out of their way to attack anyone, but would defend themselves against any invaders. While they would be quite likely to fight defensive wars against the Bannor, the Elohim just wouldn't act in a way that would give them any reason to fight them.


The biggest failing of the Grigori is that they really aren't practical or strong enough to survive a full scale attack from almost any other civ if they get caught up in an actual war. The problem with living in Grigori lands is that they probably won't stay Grigori all that long.

I'd say their failing is related but somewhat different. Lack of or limited interference is very much a two-edged sword. It means that the government does not and could not cause much harm to the people, but it also means that its ability to keep others from causing harm is very much limited. People in the Grigori lands will enjoy few taxes (as a possibility, no permanent taxes at all, but rather war-time taxes and taxes gathered for specific needs) and a great degree of personal freedom; however, they would also suffer from all the problems that ended the Greek city-states, the Roman Republic and the early Medieval free agrarian communities. Not only would it be basically impossible for them to have a professional military or a professional civil service (which they would have to develop to construct a large empire; I agree that this works all too well with that not being their goal in the first place) without going against the founding ideals, but protection against foreign invaders and domestic criminals would be increasingly complicated as those threats become more powerful and/or ingenious. Furthermore, prolonged warfare, natural disasters and other such catastrophies could irrevocably undermine the yeoman farmers, who are indeed the foundation of this society, and indeed lead to the development of feudalism with all the fun things that accompany it, like serfdom, feudal warfare and disintegration of what central authority actually exists. So without Cassiel's interference, the Grigori land will sooner or later turn into a collection of bickering principalities, where the feudals would very much retain Cassiel's ideals and Grigori freedoms inasmuch as they apply to themselves.

Mind you, nobody ever said that Cassiel absolutely can't ever interfere when something that goes directly against his ideals begins to transpire. But a lasting agrarian democracy is more or less impossible to sustain. Possibly a system of limited, regulated feudalism might be the way out; urban republics, meanwhile, are more viable, but likely to disenfranchise the agrarian population to a far greater extent than the feudals on their own (not to mention evolve into oligarchies), and we Cassiel can't have that, now can he? And a meritocratic bureaucratic (think idealised China here, only with less humility and pomp) Grigori empire, while nice, will probably also clash with Cassiel's ideals. Then again, there might be something to that last thought, as long as it is accompanied by certain specific and immutable laws protected by Cassiel himself...

 

[Lord'sBelievers]

I hope Cassiel would allow me to teach about Jesus.

 

[das]

...somehow I doubt that the Luonnotar (incidentally, they might very well be the regulatory entity for the Grigori, in addition to their (anti)religious functions) remove entire religions from cities with a pat on the back and a kind word. They are not necessarily more (or less) ruthless than their religious counterparts, but whatever they do seems to be pretty effective, whether it is mass expulsion, public executions, lynchings or mere "deprogramming" (read: brainwashing).

 

[Tyrs]

As a whole the Grigori are rasied on the fact that "gods" exist but they view them as petulant children. After being indocdrinated with that its hard to turn to worship.

But remember that religions can spread into Grigori cities, its less likely than other civs but it can happen. Grigori people do occasionally convert to religions and Cassiel doesn't kill them for it (unlike what Basium would do to anyone worshipping the veil in his cities). Its just that Cassiel would never declare a state religion or stop teaching that the gods are wrong.

I'm pretty sure that its been said that Cassiel and the Grigori don't stop anyone from preaching, they just don't let them collect money from their followers.
EDIT: Found some backing, hoping for a lore monkey to jump in and give real answers, heh.

 

[Lord'sBelievers]

Would they allow money collected for helping the poor?

 

[Saint Rising]

Calabim would be the worst. I really don't want to be human cattle, kthxbai.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

If I wanted to continue an existence similar to "real life", then it would probably be the Kuriotates, and just hope that Cardith tries to keep me and the population happy with Fellowship trees rather than a tower of complancy and a lot of undead water-walkers. Cassiel and the Grigori as well for the reasons stated here. In a world where pretty much all the religions are rather fanatical, steering clear of it entirely would probably be the most "pleasant" way to live life.

But personally, I'd want to live under the Balserapths (call me crazy ).

Streets paved with people dressed in all manner of unusual clothing. Carnivals at every turn (I assume that comes with Cotton Candy too, yum!). Once you get over the moral conflicts of finding enslavement sickening, you can enjoy both animal and human shows. You have Loki running around Entertaining and Inspiring you... when he isn't busy annoying the neighbours and bringing in a fresh batch of immigrants to Jubilee.

Even going to war is a dance-like show. Strange mutated creatures on one side, cheerfully painted Merrymen on the other side. At the front (or back, or side or above, you never know) you've got homicidal Harlequins dazzling the foe with all sorts of unconventional offence.... or the good old fashioned thwack them on the head really hard with a stick method. It depends what kind of Harlequin they are. At the very least you know they're going to make your first attacks a little quicker.

Your mages make a show of it too. The usual way of summoning beasts and spells isn't good enough for them. First, they'll bring a puppet into existence and then command their puppet to do the spell for them. And you have the very elite core of your army. Your very best champions, who after drilling a sword through their foe will happily take note of their foe's best abilities and put them into practice against the next opponent.

Even if you're marching to your death, it's got to be a more cheerful affair than marching to your death in a conventional manner. The only frustrating aspect is you're probably marching to your death because King Peppy saw a really nice hat in your neighbour's city and demands the army capture the city so that he can obtain it.

As for day-to-day life, Eldric IV said it in the most fun way:

As soon as you think you figure something out, the Belseraph reality would come crushing it. It is not "everything you know is wrong; black is white, up is down, short is long." That is contrariness and easy to grasp. Rather, it is "everything you know is flapjack; purple gravity, bird is employment, cthulhu fhtagn." (And yes, I found OO every time I play Belseraph.)

Real life is boring. It's why we play video-games Screw working hard for my position, getting by on my own talent and all those other things we're used to. Make Peppy (or Keelyn) smile and you'll probably get that upside down mansion Tyrs promised. Paint cows green to see if it increases their milk productivity and you'll probably upstage all the best advisors in the land.

Even if you end up in the slave cages, Beeri proved that if you're amusing enough you'll be let loose, and whilst he may speak in tongues, Perpentach won't go back on his word... it's just a matter of trying to translate what he said into normal-people words.

As for Keelyn, she doesn't seem too hard to amuse. If you're a Bard, play a really pretty song (on a Lyre perharps) and you'll be in her good books. If not... try to stay on the good side of her "friends".

And as Kael said:

sanity is overrated.

Also, I rambled on way more than I expected to when I entered this thread. Lore threads are fun, stimulate the imagination

 

[das]

I'm pretty sure that its been said that Cassiel and the Grigori don't stop anyone from preaching, they just don't let them collect money from their followers.
EDIT: Found some backing, hoping for a lore monkey to jump in and give real answers, heh.

That's all good and fine, but how does the Luonnotar inquisition work? Is it along the lines of redoctrination/reeducation for those who have fallen into the error of god-worship? Or do they just preach and preach and preach until everybody in the city deconverts just to shut them up?

And I definitely agree that the Agnostic trait is a misnomer. Technically, it should be Antitheistic, since its bearers are actively opposing the gods (in Auric's case, all the other gods).

 

[Atnanor]

Or do they just preach and preach and preach until everybody in the city deconverts just to shut them up?

Precisely. Further more, no one can do anything about it since the gods are scared shitless about it so they won't send a balor to shut 'em up.

 

[Dumanios]

I would like to live in:Elohim,Calm and Peaceful;Kuriotates,Diverse and Powerful;Amurites,Becasue I could control magic;Lanun,'Cause I could get me some Booty!;Grigori,Because I would have the freedom to not worship a religion and the Illians,If they do start the 2nd age of Ice,I want to be one the winning side.

I would'nt like to live in:Any evil land other than Illians or the Mercurians.

 

[Guybrush!]

I would probably pick Grigori.
I just feel like living there would be the best. I know they dont have much of a military, but I enjoy helping others, so I would have the opportunity to do so, wether it be from farming, defending the town I live in, or whatever else.Plus, Religion INEVITABLY leads to conflict and to be free from it in day to day life (except when the Bannor come in and stomp on everyone for not beleiving in order, or Perpentach has me turned into a zombie because he likes my hat) would be nice.
The Kurioates (or however its spelt) would be another good choice, if only to wander the spawling metropolisis, seeing the wonders that bringing all races together creates.
Lanun would be awesome, I'd finally meet Falamar and Guybrush!

As for worst, it depends.
If you fear the unkown and like to be able to control things, Perpentach and his clowns imediately become a horrible choice. I would NEVER want to live in their lands, because slavery sickens me. But fighting a war over a fancy hat would be nice .
Calabim would be bad if you were not noblilty / vampire. Prettey much just human cattle.
Following Overlords or Ashen Veil would probably result in becoming a zombie or being sacraficed, both not very nice.
Living in Svartalfar would be horrible, as you would constantly be jumping at shadows and watching for someone trying to put a knife in your back.

 

[KillerClowns]

...Living in Svartalfar would be horrible, as you would constantly be jumping at shadows and watching for someone trying to put a knife in your back.

I've always thought of the Svartalfar as more xenophobic then anything else. They have no problem with slaughtering Ljosalfar, and backstabbing every filthy non-Elf in Erebus. But spilling the blood of a fellow Svartalfar? Not without good reason!
Although the Svartalfar definition of "good reason" might be pretty loose. It wouldn't include "because I want what you have," unless "I" was Faeryl Viconia, but it would certainly include "speaking out against the Winter Court."

 

[dot]

best: svartalfar. faeryl is hot.

What could I possibly say.