Which Native american civilization would work best in Civ V?

[ork75]

A try at the Haida -
UA: Vikings of the Pacific - All naval units have double and the prize ship promotion while in coastal waters. When pillaging fishing boats, get a work boat unit and when attacking embarked civilians, capture the unit if victorious.
UB: Totem Pole (replaces monument) - provides 1 and +1 and for every coast and forest tile worked by this city. Requires a forest adjacent to the city, city must be coastal.
UU: Haida War Canoe (replaces galleass): 3, 16, 20, may melee attack, double heal and double money from pillaging, starts with boarding party 1.

and the Chachapoyas -
UA: Warriors of the Clouds - cities adjacent to mountains get +20. Jungle hills and jungle adjacent to mountains have +2
UB: Cliff Sarcophagi (replaces amphitheatre) - +2, +1 for every mountain within 3 tiles of the city
UU: Ayllu (replaces swordsman) - 12, starts with free woodsman promotion, does not require iron.

I couldn't find a name for the Chachapoyas UU, so just used Ayllu, which is more of a familial organization.

 

[Gucumatz]

I have been a big supporter of the Chachapoya for a long time. They were hugely important in South America for centuries, that being said I don't think they are likely to get into civ.

I forgot to mention the Inuit in the list. Not exactly (in my opinion) the best civ to get in, but it could get in just because it could fill an ice niche in Civ 5.

 

[aluelkdf]

I would like to see the Pueblos or the Inuit. The Pueblos were unique for their architecture, and the Inuit are unique due to living in ice/snow.

The Inuit could have a UA that allows them to settle a city on a coastal area of ice (but not landlocked ice). (other civs can capture the city with a navy, so the city is not invincible. But other civs can never build on ice, just capture) The inuit should also be allowed to move over ice. And they could get an extra bonus from sea recources located near ice, to make it worthwhile for them to settle there.

 

[True_Candyman]

I have been a big supporter of the Chachapoya for a long time. They were hugely important in South America for centuries, that being said I don't think they are likely to get into civ.

I forgot to mention the Inuit in the list. Not exactly (in my opinion) the best civ to get in, but it could get in just because it could fill an ice niche in Civ 5.

I wouldn't say the Chachapoya were hugely important, they were just another one of the competing late intermediate cultures that was conquered by the Inca.

The Chavin would be my first choice of Peruvian civ after the Inca; they developed a religious culture that permeated through the later societies, including the Chachapoya and Inca. They also developed a ceremonial centre in their empire that was only really rivalled in South America later on by Tiwanaku (Pre-Inca).

 

[ork75]

Actually, the Chachapoyas damn near beat the Inca, and are nearly Amazonian. Their cliff sarcophagi are quite unique and their fortresses (esp. Kuelap) are nearly unrivaled in the Americas. They have a completely different language, culture, architecture, etc. than the rest of the Andean civs.

Also, I suggest the Haida. They occupy an as-of-yet abandoned corner of the map and have incredibly unique architecture and culture. They were also one of the few tribes able to defend against and modernize with European powers, capturing 6 ships and mounting cannon and swivel guns on their dugouts.

 

[Arachnofiend]

A try at the Haida -
UA: Vikings of the Pacific - All naval units have double and the prize ship promotion while in coastal waters. When pillaging fishing boats, get a work boat unit and when attacking embarked civilians, capture the unit if victorious.
UB: Totem Pole (replaces monument) - provides 1 and +1 and for every coast and forest tile worked by this city. Requires a forest adjacent to the city, city must be coastal.
UU: Haida War Canoe (replaces galleass): 3, 16, 20, may melee attack, double heal and double money from pillaging, starts with boarding party 1.

I think the UA could probably just be the second half and still be great. Totem pole sounds terrifyingly good, though I'd take out the forest-related things because finding a location that is both forested and coastal might be a bit much.

 

[True_Candyman]

Actually, the Chachapoyas damn near beat the Inca, and are nearly Amazonian. Their cliff sarcophagi are quite unique and their fortresses (esp. Kuelap) are nearly unrivaled in the Americas. They have a completely different language, culture, architecture, etc. than the rest of the Andean civs.

Also, I suggest the Haida. They occupy an as-of-yet abandoned corner of the map and have incredibly unique architecture and culture. They were also one of the few tribes able to defend against and modernize with European powers, capturing 6 ships and mounting cannon and swivel guns on their dugouts.

Very nice, they are very unique, so is everyone else. I would guess you've watched a very nice documentary about them on BBC4. I have nothing against them being added either, i just think the Chavin have had an influence on wider South American culture and thus world history that the Chachapoya cannot match. The Chachapoya were a competing regional power where the Chavin were an interegional religious and cultural powerhouse.

As for the Haida, again they are only as unique as everyone else. They hardly defended against European powers though, they were swallowed up like all the rest into what became Canada and their lands were taken and colonised. There is nothing wrong with the Haida, but there are so many other native american civilisations with far greater achievements than them. The only reasons they've become so prominent are their supposed likeness to the Vikings, their location and their totem poles. In my eyes none of that should distinguish them.

 

[smallfish]

A try at the Haida -
UA: Vikings of the Pacific - All naval units have double and the prize ship promotion while in coastal waters. When pillaging fishing boats, get a work boat unit and when attacking embarked civilians, capture the unit if victorious.
UB: Totem Pole (replaces monument) - provides 1 and +1 and for every coast and forest tile worked by this city. Requires a forest adjacent to the city, city must be coastal.
UU: Haida War Canoe (replaces galleass): 3, 16, 20, may melee attack, double heal and double money from pillaging, starts with boarding party 1.

I do like this "prize ships only in coastal waters" aspect of the UA, and am very intrigued with the game of chance on nabbing embarked hostiles. The only problem I'm seeing is how to get this all programmed, with the AI to go along with using it given that coastal tiles tend to be limited in room for maneuver (unlike ocean)...

If that is overcome, I think this could be a very fun civ to play with (or against) especially on Archipelagos.

 

[Arachnofiend]

\As for the Haida, again they are only as unique as everyone else. They hardly defended against European powers though, they were swallowed up like all the rest into what became Canada and their lands were taken and colonised. There is nothing wrong with the Haida, but there are so many other native american civilisations with far greater achievements than them. The only reasons they've become so prominent are their supposed likeness to the Vikings, their location and their totem poles. In my eyes none of that should distinguish them.

The totem poles alone make them iconic enough for inclusion. We've already got an Ethiopian ruler who's great accomplishment is getting his ass kicked by the Italians and a Songhai ruler who's great accomplishment is an incredibly fabulous pilgrimage, it's not like being a great empire is a necessity.

 

[True_Candyman]

The totem poles alone make them iconic enough for inclusion. We've already got an Ethiopian ruler who's great accomplishment is getting his ass kicked by the Italians and a Songhai ruler who's great accomplishment is an incredibly fabulous pilgrimage, it's not like being a great empire is a necessity.

Notably you compared Haida civilisation to specific leaders there. Ethiopia has a long history that arguably makes it stand out from other competing civilisations. Songhai was a dominant empire in West Africa for a long period too, regardless of Askias achievements. Both of them are considered significant civilisations in their own right, regardless of the leader choices. The Haida just don't match up to that sort of level, despite their totem poles.

If i say why the Haida instead of Cahokia, Chachapoya or any other native american civilisation the two answers that seem to stand out are 'they have totem poles' and 'they are like the vikings'.

An iconic construction may be nice, but it's not really enough in my eyes to put it ahead of the pack. And unfortunately, they are not like the vikings. Th comparisons i've heard are based on their coastal pillaging and whatnot. The vikings were also keen explorers and colonisers. Perhaps the biggest difference is that the vikings had something aking to an organised state where the Haida did not.

 

[fufie]

The totem poles alone make them iconic enough for inclusion. We've already got an Ethiopian ruler who's great accomplishment is getting his ass kicked by the Italians and a Songhai ruler who's great accomplishment is an incredibly fabulous pilgrimage, it's not like being a great empire is a necessity.

Haile Selassie's main accomplishments are not really on the 4X axis (except maybe exploit the poor people in his country). But for G&K I think he is relevant - he is the god incarnate for a new religion, and Ethiopia is a lot about starting a new religion. Another aspect is that Ethiopia is (still) a greek orthodox island in a sea of islam. So a small civ turtling with a religious aspect fits. If diplomacy/UN was expanded Haile Selassie would also work well.

The Spirit of Adwa would probably fit Emperor Menelik or Haile Selassie's father, but then again the UA rarely fits the leader. Classic example of leader <-> UA mismatch is of course Ancien Regime and Napoleon.

 

[Jabberwockxeno]

Haile Selassie's main accomplishments are not really on the 4X axis (except maybe exploit the poor people in his country). But for G&K I think he is relevant - he is the god incarnate for a new religion, and Ethiopia is a lot about starting a new religion. Another aspect is that Ethiopia is (still) a greek orthodox island in a sea of islam. So a small civ turtling with a religious aspect fits. If diplomacy/UN was expanded Haile Selassie would also work well.

The Spirit of Adwa would probably fit Emperor Menelik or Haile Selassie's father, but then again the UA rarely fits the leader. Classic example of leader <-> UA mismatch is of course Ancien Regime and Napoleon.

Well, nap. did think steam power was a load of bogus for a while...

The biggest example I think is germany's UA. Germany in game is the nation, the UA is referring to ancient germanic tribes.

 

[Gucumatz]

Chavin are an interesting society too. There are plenty as well - but I don't think its fair to call the Chachapoya another civ that the Inca just killed.
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The Chachapoyan Confederation were the main conduit of trade in South America with nearly every good north of them, east of them, south of them, and possibly even west of them (There is some evidence that Chachapoyan Merchants could have contacted even the Polynesian islands as there have been certain goods and plants found in Chachapoyan tombs only found from the Pacific Islands).

Each of the Chachapoyan cities were to be honest, huge in population particularly for South America. Population estimates put them on the same size as Maya cities. The Chachapoya were also known for having some of the most important religious sites in the South American world. They were innovators in terracotta, warfare, trade, construction [The Biggest Site in all of South America is Kuelap, the Chachapoyan Capital], etc.

And its not like all of the Chachapoya were defeated by the time the Spaniards arrived. There were some city states of the Chachapoya that continued to resist the Inca - Some of which that became key aids for Spanish allies to destroy the Inca.
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Plus the Chavin Culture is both too old and not known enough about compared to some larger civs like the Chachapoya where you could possibly put a Leader, UUs, and UBs for the Civ.

 

[fufie]

Well, nap. did think steam power was a load of bogus for a while...

The biggest example I think is germany's UA. Germany in game is the nation, the UA is referring to ancient germanic tribes.

Napoleon commisioned Fulton to make a steam powered submarine though But the UA is funny since Napoleon in so many ways put an end to the Ancien Régime (and the royalists) and did it more than once

And yes, the Germany UA is a bit peculiar, but then again Germany needs something in the early game. Germany represents so many distinct periods that could easily have spawned different civs (germanic tribes, holy roman empire, preussen/prussia, german empire, weimar, nazi, west+east, unified) with very different abilities.

 

[ork75]

Very nice, they are very unique, so is everyone else. I would guess you've watched a very nice documentary about them on BBC4.

Actually, I went to Peru and scoured wikipedia. That documentary did seem like it could be interesting though.

I have nothing against them being added either, i just think the Chavin have had an influence on wider South American culture and thus world history that the Chachapoya cannot match. The Chachapoya were a competing regional power where the Chavin were an interegional religious and cultural powerhouse.

Frankly, both are interesting and important. I could go with either.

As for the Haida, again they are only as unique as everyone else. They hardly defended against European powers though, they were swallowed up like all the rest into what became Canada and their lands were taken and colonised. There is nothing wrong with the Haida, but there are so many other native american civilisations with far greater achievements than them. The only reasons they've become so prominent are their supposed likeness to the Vikings, their location and their totem poles. In my eyes none of that should distinguish them.

Well, they also fill a hole in the map, and they have nameable leaders. They are also quite iconic. If it is a crapshoot, as you imply, then I wouldn't rule them out. Think of Sweden and the Huns with G&K.

 

[Gucumatz]

Well the difference is Europeans/Americans know about Sweden and the Huns. In the US you aren't really taught of other South American native civs other than the Inca.

 

[ork75]

Not really. Not many non Civ players I know know that Sweden was a 17th century military superpower.

 

[Gucumatz]

I think you meant to say many didn't know Sweden was a Superpower. And I agree. But the point is they are still more known relatively from a European perspective, which gave them a higher chance of getting in. Just because the Chachapoya were important, doesn't give them higher odds though because of their lack of knowledge from the "Western" world.

 

[KerwiniusJones]

So a 1 3 tile with a granary, but that doesn't get better over the game? Sounds very weak. Especially as you give additional yield to camps (tundra forest) and fishing boats (sea) as well. A civ should focus on one environment, not on all Can you build improvements on tundra? If so, better, but still very limiting as a playstyle. And wouldn't it feel wrong to build farms in the snow?

I wouldn't make snow tiles worthwhile, that sounds like an overkill. Tundra itself is a terrain that can get a boost, so buff that for the Inuit and keep the snow movement and roads, as those sound interesting.

For that reason I think igloos would make more sense as a unique improvement. Whatever their UA would be can be good regardless of the start, but assuming they have a snow / tundra bias, they could have an igloo improvement that effectively makes the difference to make it as effective as a farm on either plains or grassland. The igloo could progress in the techs on the same ones as farms.

 

[True_Candyman]

The Chachapoyan Confederation were the main conduit of trade in South America with nearly every good north of them, east of them, south of them, and possibly even west of them (There is some evidence that Chachapoyan Merchants could have contacted even the Polynesian islands as there have been certain goods and plants found in Chachapoyan tombs only found from the Pacific Islands).

Each of the Chachapoyan cities were to be honest, huge in population particularly for South America. Population estimates put them on the same size as Maya cities. The Chachapoya were also known for having some of the most important religious sites in the South American world. They were innovators in terracotta, warfare, trade, construction [The Biggest Site in all of South America is Kuelap, the Chachapoyan Capital], etc.

And its not like all of the Chachapoya were defeated by the time the Spaniards arrived. There were some city states of the Chachapoya that continued to resist the Inca - Some of which that became key aids for Spanish allies to destroy the Inca.
=======================

Plus the Chavin Culture is both too old and not known enough about compared to some larger civs like the Chachapoya where you could possibly put a Leader, UUs, and UBs for the Civ.

I'll give you that last bit on the Chavin, but i would dispute such a great deal of what you've just listed on the Chachapoya.

Main conduit of trade in south america? with nearly every good?

They may have been good merchants, but no-one's that good. There was huge commercial activity occurring in Columbia at this time too, and the wealth the growing Inca empire was drawing in through tribute was phenomenal. As for the pacific islands bit, the nature of plant migration in the south pacific meant that seeds had to travel long distances carried by the wind high in the atmosphere. They were often carried hundreds or even thousands of miles, and no doubt reached South America. Not to say they definitively hadn't traded with the pacific islanders of course, it could have happened.

Kuelap was an exceptional city for the Chachapoya, most of their cities weren't nearly as big (if you could call most of them cities). There haven't been a great deal of Chachapoya sites discovered, but the vast majority of them are smaller settlements. Kuelap is an exception, and its widely thought to be mostly unoccupied the large majority of the time. I'm not sure you could really call Kuelap their capital either, they didn't really have a capital as you or I know, so i suppose its the equivalent.

They had some cool constructions in cliffs, and Kuelaps certainly large. Their religious sites however were as far as i'm aware only really significant to themselves. They were not any form of pilgrimage site on the scale of the Chavin or Tiwanaku.

I'm all for the Chachapoya being included, they have some interesting twists that could be exploited into Unique attributes in game. They are worthy in my book too, i can just think of a few South American cultures i would put first. And i'm not sure I agree with your reasons.