When I first got internet access I spent most of my time on Usenet. This was around 1996. I was playing Civ 1 and 2 (i think?) but didn't know that there was an online community based around the game.
Imagine my surprise when I come across this:
This guy - Ma Tuoen (pseudonym) is the source for a whole slew of incorrect fissile production amounts that some people keep coming across to say that China may have a lot more nuclear material than they admit. I came across this at ArmsControlWonk.com:
http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/4799/collected-thoughts-on-phil-karber#more-2103
I find it interesting that the Civilization series has been linked to nuclear armaments analysis in this way.
Imagine my surprise when I come across this:
Spoiler Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
From: [email :
an123889@anon.penet.fi[/email]]Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic
From: an123889@anon.penet.fi
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:55:04 UTC
Subject: *** Civ II: Suggestion for Version 2 ***
As a Civ II fan (not a real fanatic yet), here I have some suggestions
on how to improve its gameplay/realisticity:
1. What can be done now (modifying the file rule.txt).
a. Change the Firepower of Destroyer to 2, which will give it
an EAV/EDV (see my previous post "Civ II: Actual Mechanics
of Combat" for their definitions) of 360. This change
will put the capacity of Destroyer (Shield: 60)
between Ironclad (EAV/EDV: 180, Shield: 60) and Cruiser
(EAV/EDV: 540, Shield: 80), assuming they are all Veteran.
This should get rid of complaints that Ironclad would kill
Destroyer and is more realistic. Currently (as of v1.11),
Destroyer (EAV/EDV: 180) might not be able to kill Submarine
(EDV: 180)
b. Adjust AI values for certain Technologies/Civilization Advances.
For example, dramatically increase the AI value of Sanitation
to 8 (currently, Computer Players/CP's Cities usually stop growing
at the size of 12 because CP won't develop the Sanitation and thus
not be able to build the Sewer System).
c. Modify values of AI-Irrigate/AI-Mine for Terrain Improvement.
Desert, 1,2, 0,1,0, yes,1, 5,2, yes,1, 5,0, Pln, ; Drt
- -
Swamp, 2,3, 1,0,0, Grs,1,15,2, yes,0,15,0, Pln, ; Swa
- -
Jungle, 2,3, 1,0,0, Grs,1,15,2, yes,0,15,0, Pln, ; Jun
- -
As in the original Civ, terra-transforming Swamp/Jungle to Grassland
will yield great benefit (+2 Food +0/1 Shield +2 Trade) in spite of
the cost (for Settler, 23 turns = 1/Move + 15 + 5/Irrigate + 2/Road).
Doing the same on Desert/Plain/Grassland needs 8 turns (=1+5+2) but
gaining +1 Food +2 Trade.
Mining Desert (+1 Shield) won't pay as much as Irrigating it
(+1 Food) since the later equals to adding a half Specialist.
2. What needs the effort of Microprose, i.e., modifying the source code.
By now, many of us Civ fans/fanatics have known that Brian Reynolds
has left Microprose (what's the cause?). We had been very happy
with his eagerness to help and professional standard that Brian had
shown us in those patches and discussion for the post-sale support
(that was quite unprecendent and gave a VERY good reputation to
Microprose).
Even though we don't know under what circumstance Brian Reynolds
left Microprose, we still hope Microprose will spends at least
certain manpower (a few programmer-weeks < $10,000) to modify
certain parts of Civ II source code to improve the playability
of the game and release the Version 2 of Civ II.
Easy-to-implement parts:
a. Tell AI Settler/Engineer to build Road after it finishes
Irrigation of Desert/Plain/Grassland. Currently, you can
see the Computer Settler/Engineers Irrigate squares around
a City but never build any Road on them (I saw the process).
b. Tell AI not to terra-transform squares with special resources.
Once I saw a Computer Settler transform a Pheasant (3F/2S) square
to Buffalo (1F/3S) but then left without doing anything else.
(Observations were in the normal playing mode, not the cheat mode).
c. Make the technoloy catch-up easier for AI. For example, once
a Technology/Advance has been discovered by a Civilization, it
should take only 3/4 (75%) of original research effort for other
Civilizations to acquire it; and if a Civilization has contact
with another Civilization having the Advance, it will take only
1/2 (50%) of research effort to discover it.
This is both realistic in the real world and good for AI. It
can be easily implemented by modifying total number of research
beakers/bulbs needed for a technology at the time of selection.
d. Add interest payment to the current fund available, for example,
10% per turn. This is realistic and good for AI since they always
maintain a large balance in their treasuries. Also let AI use
the money to buy Wonders during the Wonder-building race.
e. Add the cost of bribing units in/around the City when inciting
a Revolt on a City. This is both realistic and easy to implement.
It will also avoid the absurd case when a very small city near
the frontline can be easily bought with a lot of units in it
being turned over to enemy.
f. Add an option on Emperor/Deity level that Computer Players will
NOT attack each other. This should get rid of complaints that
Civ II is too easy (at least for a while).
Not-too-hard-to-implement part:
g. Make Nuclear/Cruising Missiles behave like Paratroop, i.e., move
like a land unit (3 movement points?) before launch. The difference
from Paratroop would be that they can be landed anywhere after the
launch and then explode on impact. This is realistic and should
eliminate the abuse of using them as the scouting units.
h. When a Nuclear Missile hits a City, in addition to eliminating
half of population, let it destroy Temple/Cathedral/Colosseum
plus half of remaining City Improvements. This is more realistic
and should get rid of the absurd case that the City would celebrate
"We Love the King Day" (for what???) after being hit by Nuclear
Missiles.
i. Let Helicopter behave like Fighter, i.e., capable of moving after
attack. It will be more realistic and human player will build it.
j. Make Marine the only unit which can walk directly into an empty
enemy City from ships. This will add some reality and incentive
for human player to build it.
k. Let Diplomat/Spy conduct more effective counter-espionage, i.e.,
prevent Cities from being bribed/inspected, water-source being
poisoned, and especially, being planted with a Nuclear device.
Maybe not 100% but to certain degree and cumulative with number
of Diplomats/Spies in the City.
l. If a Spy wants to plant a Nuclear device in a City, it MUST
have a Nuclear Missile with it!!! Otherwise, you could have
a 30-Shield Spy to do the job of 160-Shield Nuclear Missile.
m. Make certain Wonders less powerful. For example, make
Hoover-Dam/J.S.Bach's-Cathedral function only for Cities
on the same continent (as in the original Civilization).
Do the same to Adam-Smith's-Trading-Co./Michelangelo's-Chapel
plus maybe Pyramids. This is more realistic for these
not-so-modern Wonders.
Let Leonardo's-Workshop expires earlier (e.g. at Conscription?)
and Marco Polo's Embassy expires on Steam-Engine(?).
Reveal the world map only to the civilization which builds
Apollo-Program, or those who build SS-Module later. This is
more realistic.
n. As many people complained the Fundamentalist government being
too powerful/unrealistically rich, make all its Trading Routes
null, and the 'tithes' from Temple/Cathedral/Colosseum effects
be only half as much as currently calculated.
As the compensation and being realistic, make units/cities
under the Fundamentalist government immune to bribery, and
Fanatics unit harder to destroy (how about increasing its
Defense Factor from 4 to 6?).
3. How to make AI less absurd/stupid.
Not-too-hard-to-implement part:
a. Tell AI not to build so many Fortresses! If it really has to
build them on some choke points, at least put some troops in them!
(It's just wasting AI's Settler/Engineer time and give Human
Players a lot of easy shelters).
b. When AI stations troops to defend a City, make the first 2 units
with the highest defense factor (as it's doing now), BUT the 3rd
one being the siege attack unit (such as Catapult, Cannon, etc),
the 4th one being the normal defense unit, then 5th one being
the mobile attack unit (such as Chariot, Elephant etc), and so on.
This will give AI some abilities to counter-attack human invasion.
Currently, AI/CP(Computer Players) would fortify five or six
defense units in a City, but without any counter-attack ability,
only being slaughted by human player one-by-one.
I think this can be implemented easily, since in v1.11 there is
an AutoBuild option, which should be the way AI is doing now.
The only modification needed is redefine the AI-role value as
0 = Defense, 1 = Mobile Attack, 2 = Siege Attack, and so on.
c. When AI moves a Siege Attack unit to frontline, let it be escorted
with a Defense unit, which will be needed anyway when attacking
or after taking a City.
Make AI to form combat groups of units before attack a City
(at least after certain turns, say, after 1 A.D.). For example,
a basic group of 4 (2 Mobile Attack Units, 1 Siege Attack Unit
and 1 Defense Unit) must be formed before being sent out for
an aggressive mission carried on a Galleon; or two such groups
on a Transport; in the earlier era, have 2 Mobile Attack units
plus 1 Defense unit on a Caravel; or just 2 Mobile Attack units
on a Trireme.
In one word, don't let AI conduct piecewise attacks. Waite
and concentrate forces as Human Players have been doing.
d. Don't let AI initiate losing battles. Once, when I was conducting
a war but forced into ceasefire due to the Democracy, the Computer
Player/AI sneak-attacked my Armor units safely sheltered in a Fortress
built by AI with (you guess) a lone Musketteer, gave my Armor units
excuse to take their cities!
I think AI should calculate the respective EAVs of their units and
EDVs of their enemies before engage an attack. Also AI should prepare
for the follow-up attacks with more units.
e. Make AI's massive naval fleet do SOMETHING. Usually, my Battleships
would be surrounded by dozens(!) AI Destroyers/Cruisers plus maybe
a few AI Battleships but AI wouldn't attack my Battleships. I just
ignore their massive naval fleet but directly take their Cities, then
their fleet would just disappear.
Teach AI to use a cheap Destroyer (60 Shields) to inflict some
damage to an enemy Battleship, and then send in a Battleship
to finish the enemy Battleship (160 Shields).
In one word, give AI some Intelligence!
Sorry for using anon-service. But I don't want my boss to know
I'm wasting his time. Thanks for your understanding.
MA Tuowen, a.k.a. "Samuel Clemens"
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From: an123889@anon.penet.fi
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:55:04 UTC
Subject: *** Civ II: Suggestion for Version 2 ***
As a Civ II fan (not a real fanatic yet), here I have some suggestions
on how to improve its gameplay/realisticity:
1. What can be done now (modifying the file rule.txt).
a. Change the Firepower of Destroyer to 2, which will give it
an EAV/EDV (see my previous post "Civ II: Actual Mechanics
of Combat" for their definitions) of 360. This change
will put the capacity of Destroyer (Shield: 60)
between Ironclad (EAV/EDV: 180, Shield: 60) and Cruiser
(EAV/EDV: 540, Shield: 80), assuming they are all Veteran.
This should get rid of complaints that Ironclad would kill
Destroyer and is more realistic. Currently (as of v1.11),
Destroyer (EAV/EDV: 180) might not be able to kill Submarine
(EDV: 180)
b. Adjust AI values for certain Technologies/Civilization Advances.
For example, dramatically increase the AI value of Sanitation
to 8 (currently, Computer Players/CP's Cities usually stop growing
at the size of 12 because CP won't develop the Sanitation and thus
not be able to build the Sewer System).
c. Modify values of AI-Irrigate/AI-Mine for Terrain Improvement.
Desert, 1,2, 0,1,0, yes,1, 5,2, yes,1, 5,0, Pln, ; Drt
- -
Swamp, 2,3, 1,0,0, Grs,1,15,2, yes,0,15,0, Pln, ; Swa
- -
Jungle, 2,3, 1,0,0, Grs,1,15,2, yes,0,15,0, Pln, ; Jun
- -
As in the original Civ, terra-transforming Swamp/Jungle to Grassland
will yield great benefit (+2 Food +0/1 Shield +2 Trade) in spite of
the cost (for Settler, 23 turns = 1/Move + 15 + 5/Irrigate + 2/Road).
Doing the same on Desert/Plain/Grassland needs 8 turns (=1+5+2) but
gaining +1 Food +2 Trade.
Mining Desert (+1 Shield) won't pay as much as Irrigating it
(+1 Food) since the later equals to adding a half Specialist.
2. What needs the effort of Microprose, i.e., modifying the source code.
By now, many of us Civ fans/fanatics have known that Brian Reynolds
has left Microprose (what's the cause?). We had been very happy
with his eagerness to help and professional standard that Brian had
shown us in those patches and discussion for the post-sale support
(that was quite unprecendent and gave a VERY good reputation to
Microprose).
Even though we don't know under what circumstance Brian Reynolds
left Microprose, we still hope Microprose will spends at least
certain manpower (a few programmer-weeks < $10,000) to modify
certain parts of Civ II source code to improve the playability
of the game and release the Version 2 of Civ II.
Easy-to-implement parts:
a. Tell AI Settler/Engineer to build Road after it finishes
Irrigation of Desert/Plain/Grassland. Currently, you can
see the Computer Settler/Engineers Irrigate squares around
a City but never build any Road on them (I saw the process).
b. Tell AI not to terra-transform squares with special resources.
Once I saw a Computer Settler transform a Pheasant (3F/2S) square
to Buffalo (1F/3S) but then left without doing anything else.
(Observations were in the normal playing mode, not the cheat mode).
c. Make the technoloy catch-up easier for AI. For example, once
a Technology/Advance has been discovered by a Civilization, it
should take only 3/4 (75%) of original research effort for other
Civilizations to acquire it; and if a Civilization has contact
with another Civilization having the Advance, it will take only
1/2 (50%) of research effort to discover it.
This is both realistic in the real world and good for AI. It
can be easily implemented by modifying total number of research
beakers/bulbs needed for a technology at the time of selection.
d. Add interest payment to the current fund available, for example,
10% per turn. This is realistic and good for AI since they always
maintain a large balance in their treasuries. Also let AI use
the money to buy Wonders during the Wonder-building race.
e. Add the cost of bribing units in/around the City when inciting
a Revolt on a City. This is both realistic and easy to implement.
It will also avoid the absurd case when a very small city near
the frontline can be easily bought with a lot of units in it
being turned over to enemy.
f. Add an option on Emperor/Deity level that Computer Players will
NOT attack each other. This should get rid of complaints that
Civ II is too easy (at least for a while).
Not-too-hard-to-implement part:
g. Make Nuclear/Cruising Missiles behave like Paratroop, i.e., move
like a land unit (3 movement points?) before launch. The difference
from Paratroop would be that they can be landed anywhere after the
launch and then explode on impact. This is realistic and should
eliminate the abuse of using them as the scouting units.
h. When a Nuclear Missile hits a City, in addition to eliminating
half of population, let it destroy Temple/Cathedral/Colosseum
plus half of remaining City Improvements. This is more realistic
and should get rid of the absurd case that the City would celebrate
"We Love the King Day" (for what???) after being hit by Nuclear
Missiles.
i. Let Helicopter behave like Fighter, i.e., capable of moving after
attack. It will be more realistic and human player will build it.
j. Make Marine the only unit which can walk directly into an empty
enemy City from ships. This will add some reality and incentive
for human player to build it.
k. Let Diplomat/Spy conduct more effective counter-espionage, i.e.,
prevent Cities from being bribed/inspected, water-source being
poisoned, and especially, being planted with a Nuclear device.
Maybe not 100% but to certain degree and cumulative with number
of Diplomats/Spies in the City.
l. If a Spy wants to plant a Nuclear device in a City, it MUST
have a Nuclear Missile with it!!! Otherwise, you could have
a 30-Shield Spy to do the job of 160-Shield Nuclear Missile.
m. Make certain Wonders less powerful. For example, make
Hoover-Dam/J.S.Bach's-Cathedral function only for Cities
on the same continent (as in the original Civilization).
Do the same to Adam-Smith's-Trading-Co./Michelangelo's-Chapel
plus maybe Pyramids. This is more realistic for these
not-so-modern Wonders.
Let Leonardo's-Workshop expires earlier (e.g. at Conscription?)
and Marco Polo's Embassy expires on Steam-Engine(?).
Reveal the world map only to the civilization which builds
Apollo-Program, or those who build SS-Module later. This is
more realistic.
n. As many people complained the Fundamentalist government being
too powerful/unrealistically rich, make all its Trading Routes
null, and the 'tithes' from Temple/Cathedral/Colosseum effects
be only half as much as currently calculated.
As the compensation and being realistic, make units/cities
under the Fundamentalist government immune to bribery, and
Fanatics unit harder to destroy (how about increasing its
Defense Factor from 4 to 6?).
3. How to make AI less absurd/stupid.
Not-too-hard-to-implement part:
a. Tell AI not to build so many Fortresses! If it really has to
build them on some choke points, at least put some troops in them!
(It's just wasting AI's Settler/Engineer time and give Human
Players a lot of easy shelters).
b. When AI stations troops to defend a City, make the first 2 units
with the highest defense factor (as it's doing now), BUT the 3rd
one being the siege attack unit (such as Catapult, Cannon, etc),
the 4th one being the normal defense unit, then 5th one being
the mobile attack unit (such as Chariot, Elephant etc), and so on.
This will give AI some abilities to counter-attack human invasion.
Currently, AI/CP(Computer Players) would fortify five or six
defense units in a City, but without any counter-attack ability,
only being slaughted by human player one-by-one.
I think this can be implemented easily, since in v1.11 there is
an AutoBuild option, which should be the way AI is doing now.
The only modification needed is redefine the AI-role value as
0 = Defense, 1 = Mobile Attack, 2 = Siege Attack, and so on.
c. When AI moves a Siege Attack unit to frontline, let it be escorted
with a Defense unit, which will be needed anyway when attacking
or after taking a City.
Make AI to form combat groups of units before attack a City
(at least after certain turns, say, after 1 A.D.). For example,
a basic group of 4 (2 Mobile Attack Units, 1 Siege Attack Unit
and 1 Defense Unit) must be formed before being sent out for
an aggressive mission carried on a Galleon; or two such groups
on a Transport; in the earlier era, have 2 Mobile Attack units
plus 1 Defense unit on a Caravel; or just 2 Mobile Attack units
on a Trireme.
In one word, don't let AI conduct piecewise attacks. Waite
and concentrate forces as Human Players have been doing.
d. Don't let AI initiate losing battles. Once, when I was conducting
a war but forced into ceasefire due to the Democracy, the Computer
Player/AI sneak-attacked my Armor units safely sheltered in a Fortress
built by AI with (you guess) a lone Musketteer, gave my Armor units
excuse to take their cities!
I think AI should calculate the respective EAVs of their units and
EDVs of their enemies before engage an attack. Also AI should prepare
for the follow-up attacks with more units.
e. Make AI's massive naval fleet do SOMETHING. Usually, my Battleships
would be surrounded by dozens(!) AI Destroyers/Cruisers plus maybe
a few AI Battleships but AI wouldn't attack my Battleships. I just
ignore their massive naval fleet but directly take their Cities, then
their fleet would just disappear.
Teach AI to use a cheap Destroyer (60 Shields) to inflict some
damage to an enemy Battleship, and then send in a Battleship
to finish the enemy Battleship (160 Shields).
In one word, give AI some Intelligence!
Sorry for using anon-service. But I don't want my boss to know
I'm wasting his time. Thanks for your understanding.
MA Tuowen, a.k.a. "Samuel Clemens"
--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION***
Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED.
Please, report inappropriate use to abuse@anon.penet.fi
For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to help@anon.penet.fi
If you have any problems, address them to admin@anon.penet.fi
This guy - Ma Tuoen (pseudonym) is the source for a whole slew of incorrect fissile production amounts that some people keep coming across to say that China may have a lot more nuclear material than they admit. I came across this at ArmsControlWonk.com:
http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/4799/collected-thoughts-on-phil-karber#more-2103
I find it interesting that the Civilization series has been linked to nuclear armaments analysis in this way.
) on Usenet back in an early day.
