Who was the best GoT antagonist?

[GoodSarmatian]

And of course Young Griff should win the Iron Throne.

No, Joanna and Aeris secretly got divorced and married each other...

 

[Akka]

OK... but then Wait.. what? So to recap. I say that your positions/arguments here are based on what's in the book... which offends you for some reason... so to "destroy my whole argument"... you first deny reading the books... but then immediately say that you went and checked the books... thereby confirming that your argument here is indeed based on the book

I said "went to check how it happened in the books". It means I opened a Firefox tab, typed "Stannis Shireen" in the Google search bar, found websites speaking about "A Song of Fire and Ice" speaking about the books and checked if Stannis did burn his daughter. Didn't require to read the books.
You HAVE some really deep vested interest in this to grasp that much at straws, haven't you ?

So... OK dude whatevs. LOLs... OK I'll answer your question... again. Like I've already said three or four times. I considered Stannis a villain before he burned his daughter to death. Its funny that you accuse me of ignoring/not answering your question but then you say in bold no less that "I get the impression you would flag him as a villain even without that." Oh really? Now what in the world gave you that impression? My statements in this thread right? So that means I already answered your question, because that's the only way you could have "gotten the impression". LMAO.

So, basically, you recognize the validity of my question after making a whole show of saying it's an idiotic question. Noted.

Anyway... like I already said. I didn't list all of Stannis' evil deeds, statements etc., that made me think of him as a villain ... because others here had already done so. I even gave you the post numbers, so I have no idea why you're asking me to list them again. Just go back and read the posts. What's more... not only have my reasons already been stated by others... you've already responded to them. So its even more pointless to repeat them so you can just repeat the same arguments you've already made. Once again... we don't agree about Stannis ... its fine man. Its really not that serious.

Yeah, and again the arguments listed were pretty weak, and for someone who said (twice now) that "it's not that serious", you are nevertheless the one being seriously worked up.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I said "went to check how it happened in the books". It means I opened a Firefox tab, typed "Stannis Shireen" in the Google search bar, found websites speaking about "A Song of Fire and Ice" speaking about the books and checked if Stannis did burn his daughter. Didn't require to read the books.
You HAVE some really deep vested interest in this to grasp that much at straws, haven't you ?

So, basically, you recognize the validity of my question after making a whole show of saying it's an idiotic question. Noted.

Yeah, and again the arguments listed were pretty weak, and for someone who said (twice now) that "it's not that serious", you are nevertheless the one being seriously worked up.

Like I said... OK dude whateves...

The point is I consider Stannis a villain... and the culmination of his escalation into becoming more evil as the show progressed was a very believable ending whereby he brutally murdered his own daughter in service to his quest for power (similar to Thanos)... and in a final serving of poetic justice... Melisandre abandons him, his ultimate evil deed fails, his army is destroyed and he finally gets what's coming to him.

It was one of the most satisfying character arcs of the show... not as good as Joffrey, but damn close.

 

[Kyriakos]

Like I said... OK dude whateves...

The point is I consider Stannis a villain... and the culmination of his escalation into becoming more evil as the show progressed was a very believable ending whereby he brutally murdered his own daughter in service to his quest for power (similar to Thanos)... and in a final serving of poetic justice... Melisandre abandons him, his ultimate evil deed fails, his army is destroyed and he finally gets what's coming to him.

It was one of the most satisfying character arcs of the show... not as good as Joffrey, but damn close.

Stannis burning Shereen was even more abrupt/random than Dany burning KL. I wasn't surprised by the latter. The former also meant the sudden demise of the Stannis fandom (the most populous one at the time, afaik).
Also in the case of Stannis, it was clearly not what GRRM had told them happens, while i have to suppose Dany would burn KL in the end of the books - not that it matters, cause the books won't ever be written.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Stannis burning Shereen was even more abrupt/random than Dany burning KL. I wasn't surprised by the latter. The former also meant the sudden demise of the Stannis fandom (the most populous one at the time, afaik).
Also in the case of Stannis, it was clearly not what GRRM had told them happens, while i have to suppose Dany would burn KL in the end of the books - not that it matters, cause the books won't ever be written.

I thought it was pretty clearly established.
The whole royal blood being useful for Melisandre's spells, Melisandre suggesting Shireen be taken along etc. It wasn't surprising at all IMO.
Dany burning KL was unneccessary except to show shes insane. Destroying the Red Keep would've proved to everyone her power and actually served a purpose.

 

[Kyriakos]

I thought it was pretty clearly established.
The whole royal blood being useful for Melisandre's spells, Melisandre suggesting Shireen be taken along etc. It wasn't surprising at all IMO.
Dany burning KL was unneccessary except to show shes insane. Destroying the Red Keep would've proved to everyone her power and actually served a purpose.

In the show it was supposed to show that even with no allies she can destroy everyone.
Not that it will matter, given in the next episode she will more than likely die.
Show writing is poor as usual, but i maintain that GRRM seems to have told D&D this would be the ending (utter ruin of KL) pretty much.

 

[rah]

Stannis burning Shereen was even more abrupt/random than Dany burning KL. I wasn't surprised by the latter.

I wasn't either.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Stannis burning Shereen was even more abrupt/random than Dany burning KL. I wasn't surprised by the latter.

I wasn't surprised by either.

I thought it was pretty clearly established. The whole royal blood being useful for Melisandre's spells, Melisandre suggesting Shireen be taken along etc. It wasn't surprising at all IMO.

Agreed. The show set it up very clearly how obsessed Stannis was about seizing the throne... how he bought into the delusion about his grand destiny... how he resented his wife and resented his daughter's illness and becoming more obsessed with his quest... how he was becoming more and more desperate and willing to do worse and worse things to achieve his goals, including killing family members... how he was shunning his wife and friends and becoming more and more dependent on Melisandre to the exclusion of everyone else. Stannis' descent into ultimate evil was very well presented. It was still horrific to see him actually do that to his daughter, but it was earned by the writers.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I wasn't either.

I wasn't surprised by either one. With Dany... Even putting everything else aside there had been all these predictions all week all over the internet of Dany "going mad" so you had to see it coming... But even before that... I mean that was her original plan in the first place, right? She was going to rush the city with her whole horde and burn Kings landing to the ground with her dragons... It was only after her advisors all talked her out of it that there was even a sliver of hope that she wouldn't do it.

Plus, as someone on these threads IIRC reminded me... she had that dream/vision where she was approaching the Iron Throne and the hall was all burned out and the ceiling burned up and exposed. It seemed like an obvious prophecy that the dragons were going to burn Kings Landing and that was how she would take the throne. I remember explicitly thinking that this was exactly what the dream was prophesying when I saw it... the only difference being that I thought it was snow falling on the throne... but now we know it was ashes... but you kind of forget about that dire vision as the show progressed...

They've been setting it up the whole time... even with the Mad-King "Burn them all!" flashbacks and Jon's ominous "If you use them to burn cities and melt castles... you're just more of the same" speech... right down to the random explosions of wildfire all over the city, reminding you that this was exactly how her father had intended to destroy the city right before Jamie killed him that's why there's still wildfire bombs everywhere, they never found/collected them all... now Dany is completing the gruesome plan that her father first conceived.

Dany burning Kings Landing with her dragon was one of the most heavily telegraphed eventualities in the whole show. They earned that 100%. it wasn't remotely surprising or out-of-character.​

 

[mitsho]

No, but everyone assumed that it would be a „normal“ attack on Kings Landing and she just didn‘t know about the caches of Wildfire stored around the city. Or something else would go awry. It‘s more tragic if she intend to do a little damage (like blowing out that gate), but instead burns the whole city down.

I also like the idea that Dany and Jon on Drogon and Rhaegal take out the Iron Fleet and all the ballistas on the Wall, then pull down on the wall to watch for a moment and in this moment, Euron kills Rhaegal with a ballista hidden between the houses, making Dany angry and giving her a reason for burning the city. After all, there could be other ballistas hidden among the civilians (and she just lost a Dragon).

But even that‘s just shuffling around plot points as it doesn‘t change the fact that Dany will now be hated for burning down the city (whether she‘s done it by accident, in a rage or as in the show - for a mad desire for the populace to fear her)

 

[Sommerswerd]

We also finally got to actually see a dragon's full power unleashed... you (the royal you) can't deny that it was an awesome spectacle... and we the fans of GoT deserved to finally get that payoff after all this time of the dragons being restrained and used sparingly/surgically.

 

[Imaus]

We also finally got to actually see a dragon's full power unleashed... you (the royal you) can't deny that it was an awesome spectacle... and we the fans of GoT deserved to finally get that payoff after all this time of the dragons being restrained and used sparingly/surgically.

Stone walls and houses exploding was a bit much. I don't mind burning people or burnt wood or keeps turned into ovens, but it really felt like the explosive nature of the dragon fire came out of nowhere.

Which could had easily been circumvented by having Melisandre basically give the forces a boost. Dany comes up her, desperate for anything to help buff up Drogon. Meli winks, talks about the Lord of Light, waves her hands over the Dragon and Dany and her forces. BAM, now we have a reason why everyone goes apehorsehocky and Drogon is so powerful. But nope, apparently all it takes is a good breakfast and a desire for fraternal revenge.

And I know Meli killed herself, which seemingly also comes out of nowhere, and is propped up by excuse that she saw the defeat of the NK; and we can all complain about how easily he fell.

 

[civvver]

Stannis burning Shereen was even more abrupt/random than Dany burning KL. I wasn't surprised by the latter. The former also meant the sudden demise of the Stannis fandom (the most populous one at the time, afaik).
Also in the case of Stannis, it was clearly not what GRRM had told them happens, while i have to suppose Dany would burn KL in the end of the books - not that it matters, cause the books won't ever be written.

GRRM did tell them Stannis would burn shireen. It was one of the big secret plot twists he told them, along with the whole Hold the door/hodor bit and a third thing not revealed at the time but I would now assume was dany burning kings landing.

 

[aelf]

Kill hundreds or thousands to achieve a goal, ok; kill daughter to achieve same goal, and the judgement of the plot be upon thee!

Ah, the vicissitudes of bourgeois storytelling.

 

[mitsho]

Stannis will sacrifice his daughter in the books as a hail mary when the Dead are besieging Winterfell. Seems more logical, but in the show they needed to stall the Northern plot and really wanted to have a Jon-Ramsay confrontation. No need for that in the books.

While Stannis is powerhungry in the Show and so the characterizations in this thread fit, his book characterization of „duty for the realm“ makes him more sympathetic and way more tragic when he falls to the White Walkers. Melisandre was wrong, he wasn‘t the Prince that was Promised, all his sacrifices (himself and ones he ordered) were for nothing.

And again, I agree to all the other characterization in this thread on show!Stannis. He‘s a bad evil man.

 

[Kyriakos]

Stannis will sacrifice his daughter in the books as a hail mary when the Dead are besieging Winterfell. Seems more logical, but in the show they needed to stall the Northern plot and really wanted to have a Jon-Ramsay confrontation. No need for that in the books.

While Stannis is powerhungry in the Show and so the characterizations in this thread fit, his book characterization of „duty for the realm“ makes him more sympathetic and way more tragic when he falls to the White Walkers. Melisandre was wrong, he wasn‘t the Prince that was Promised, all his sacrifices (himself and ones he ordered) were for nothing.

And again, I agree to all the other characterization in this thread on show!Stannis. He‘s a bad evil man.

Of course if in the show he had burned Shireen only when he was being besieged by the WW it would be very different. In the show he doesn't even have to fight Ramsay.

Even if no other problems were there, i doubt GRRM could now write the books when three important plot elements are already known due to the show. I mean who is going to care about Hodor's little secret in the books?

 

[Estebonrober]

Of course if in the show he had burned Shireen only when he was being besieged by the WW it would be very different. In the show he doesn't even have to fight Ramsay.

Even if no other problems were there, i doubt GRRM could now write the books when three important plot elements are already known due to the show. I mean who is going to care about Hodor's little secret in the books?

Me. My problem with the last two seasons wasn't what happened, it was how they got there. The books have been and will continue to be much better about that.

 

[Kyriakos]

Me. My problem with the last two seasons wasn't what happened, it was how they got there. The books have been and will continue to be much better about that.

Sure, but GRRM would have to present (main) stuff people already know, pretending his readers don't know them.

 

[Estebonrober]

Sure, but GRRM would have to present (main) stuff people already know, pretending his readers don't know them.

Well he's not like contracted to stick to the show I do not believe, but for what its worth he's been saying the whole time he still plans on finishing.

 

[rah]

Planning and doing are two different things.