1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Who was the best GoT antagonist?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Kyriakos, May 14, 2019.

Tags:
?

Who was the best GoT antagonist?

  1. Tywin Lannister

    58.3%
  2. Cercei Lannister

    20.8%
  3. The Mountain

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Ramsay Bolton

    8.3%
  5. The Night King

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Euron Greyjoy

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Other/Hodor

    12.5%
  1. GoodSarmatian

    GoodSarmatian Blackpilled Idealist

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,460
    Gender:
    Male
    No, Joanna and Aeris secretly got divorced and married each other...
     
  2. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2001
    Messages:
    13,227
    Location:
    Facing my computer.
    I said "went to check how it happened in the books". It means I opened a Firefox tab, typed "Stannis Shireen" in the Google search bar, found websites speaking about "A Song of Fire and Ice" speaking about the books and checked if Stannis did burn his daughter. Didn't require to read the books.
    You HAVE some really deep vested interest in this to grasp that much at straws, haven't you ?
    So, basically, you recognize the validity of my question after making a whole show of saying it's an idiotic question. Noted.
    Yeah, and again the arguments listed were pretty weak, and for someone who said (twice now) that "it's not that serious", you are nevertheless the one being seriously worked up.
     
  3. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    15,869
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    Like I said... OK dude whateves...

    The point is I consider Stannis a villain... and the culmination of his escalation into becoming more evil as the show progressed was a very believable ending whereby he brutally murdered his own daughter in service to his quest for power (similar to Thanos)... and in a final serving of poetic justice... Melisandre abandons him, his ultimate evil deed fails, his army is destroyed and he finally gets what's coming to him.

    It was one of the most satisfying character arcs of the show... not as good as Joffrey, but damn close.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  4. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    54,476
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Stannis burning Shereen was even more abrupt/random than Dany burning KL. I wasn't surprised by the latter. The former also meant the sudden demise of the Stannis fandom (the most populous one at the time, afaik).
    Also in the case of Stannis, it was clearly not what GRRM had told them happens, while i have to suppose Dany would burn KL in the end of the books - not that it matters, cause the books won't ever be written.
     
  5. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,621
    Location:
    South Wales
    I thought it was pretty clearly established.
    The whole royal blood being useful for Melisandre's spells, Melisandre suggesting Shireen be taken along etc. It wasn't surprising at all IMO.
    Dany burning KL was unneccessary except to show shes insane. Destroying the Red Keep would've proved to everyone her power and actually served a purpose.
     
    Sommerswerd likes this.
  6. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    54,476
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    In the show it was supposed to show that even with no allies she can destroy everyone.
    Not that it will matter, given in the next episode she will more than likely die.
    Show writing is poor as usual, but i maintain that GRRM seems to have told D&D this would be the ending (utter ruin of KL) pretty much.
     
    Imaus likes this.
  7. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    8,116
    Location:
    Chicago
    I wasn't either.
     
    Kyriakos likes this.
  8. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    15,869
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    I wasn't surprised by either.
    Agreed. The show set it up very clearly how obsessed Stannis was about seizing the throne... how he bought into the delusion about his grand destiny... how he resented his wife and resented his daughter's illness and becoming more obsessed with his quest... how he was becoming more and more desperate and willing to do worse and worse things to achieve his goals, including killing family members... how he was shunning his wife and friends and becoming more and more dependent on Melisandre to the exclusion of everyone else. Stannis' descent into ultimate evil was very well presented. It was still horrific to see him actually do that to his daughter, but it was earned by the writers.
     
    Hygro likes this.
  9. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    15,869
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    I wasn't surprised by either one. With Dany... Even putting everything else aside there had been all these predictions all week all over the internet of Dany "going mad" so you had to see it coming... But even before that... I mean that was her original plan in the first place, right? She was going to rush the city with her whole horde and burn Kings landing to the ground with her dragons... It was only after her advisors all talked her out of it that there was even a sliver of hope that she wouldn't do it.

    Plus, as someone on these threads IIRC reminded me... she had that dream/vision where she was approaching the Iron Throne and the hall was all burned out and the ceiling burned up and exposed. It seemed like an obvious prophecy that the dragons were going to burn Kings Landing and that was how she would take the throne. I remember explicitly thinking that this was exactly what the dream was prophesying when I saw it... the only difference being that I thought it was snow falling on the throne... but now we know it was ashes... but you kind of forget about that dire vision as the show progressed...

    They've been setting it up the whole time... even with the Mad-King "Burn them all!" flashbacks and Jon's ominous "If you use them to burn cities and melt castles... you're just more of the same" speech... right down to the random explosions of wildfire all over the city, reminding you that this was exactly how her father had intended to destroy the city right before Jamie killed him that's why there's still wildfire bombs everywhere, they never found/collected them all... now Dany is completing the gruesome plan that her father first conceived.

    Dany burning Kings Landing with her dragon was one of the most heavily telegraphed eventualities in the whole show. They earned that 100%. it wasn't remotely surprising or out-of-character.
     
  10. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    6,932
    Location:
    Europe, more or less
    No, but everyone assumed that it would be a „normal“ attack on Kings Landing and she just didn‘t know about the caches of Wildfire stored around the city. Or something else would go awry. It‘s more tragic if she intend to do a little damage (like blowing out that gate), but instead burns the whole city down.

    I also like the idea that Dany and Jon on Drogon and Rhaegal take out the Iron Fleet and all the ballistas on the Wall, then pull down on the wall to watch for a moment and in this moment, Euron kills Rhaegal with a ballista hidden between the houses, making Dany angry and giving her a reason for burning the city. After all, there could be other ballistas hidden among the civilians (and she just lost a Dragon).

    But even that‘s just shuffling around plot points as it doesn‘t change the fact that Dany will now be hated for burning down the city (whether she‘s done it by accident, in a rage or as in the show - for a mad desire for the populace to fear her)
     
  11. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    15,869
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    We also finally got to actually see a dragon's full power unleashed... you (the royal you) can't deny that it was an awesome spectacle... and we the fans of GoT deserved to finally get that payoff after all this time of the dragons being restrained and used sparingly/surgically.
     
    rah likes this.
  12. Imaus

    Imaus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2016
    Messages:
    379
    Stone walls and houses exploding was a bit much. I don't mind burning people or burnt wood or keeps turned into ovens, but it really felt like the explosive nature of the dragon fire came out of nowhere.

    Which could had easily been circumvented by having Melisandre basically give the forces a boost. Dany comes up her, desperate for anything to help buff up Drogon. Meli winks, talks about the Lord of Light, waves her hands over the Dragon and Dany and her forces. BAM, now we have a reason why everyone goes ape**** and Drogon is so powerful. But nope, apparently all it takes is a good breakfast and a desire for fraternal revenge.

    And I know Meli killed herself, which seemingly also comes out of nowhere, and is propped up by excuse that she saw the defeat of the NK; and we can all complain about how easily he fell.
     
  13. civvver

    civvver Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    5,122
    GRRM did tell them Stannis would burn shireen. It was one of the big secret plot twists he told them, along with the whole Hold the door/hodor bit and a third thing not revealed at the time but I would now assume was dany burning kings landing.
     
    Sommerswerd and Kyriakos like this.
  14. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    16,301
    Location:
    Tir ná Lia
    Kill hundreds or thousands to achieve a goal, ok; kill daughter to achieve same goal, and the judgement of the plot be upon thee!

    Ah, the vicissitudes of bourgeois storytelling.
     
    Lexicus likes this.
  15. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    6,932
    Location:
    Europe, more or less
    Stannis will sacrifice his daughter in the books as a hail mary when the Dead are besieging Winterfell. Seems more logical, but in the show they needed to stall the Northern plot and really wanted to have a Jon-Ramsay confrontation. No need for that in the books.

    While Stannis is powerhungry in the Show and so the characterizations in this thread fit, his book characterization of „duty for the realm“ makes him more sympathetic and way more tragic when he falls to the White Walkers. Melisandre was wrong, he wasn‘t the Prince that was Promised, all his sacrifices (himself and ones he ordered) were for nothing.

    And again, I agree to all the other characterization in this thread on show!Stannis. He‘s a bad evil man.
     
    Sommerswerd and Kyriakos like this.
  16. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    54,476
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Of course if in the show he had burned Shireen only when he was being besieged by the WW it would be very different. In the show he doesn't even have to fight Ramsay.

    Even if no other problems were there, i doubt GRRM could now write the books when three important plot elements are already known due to the show. I mean who is going to care about Hodor's little secret in the books?
     
    mitsho likes this.
  17. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2017
    Messages:
    2,084
    Gender:
    Male
    Me. My problem with the last two seasons wasn't what happened, it was how they got there. The books have been and will continue to be much better about that.
     
    mitsho likes this.
  18. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    54,476
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Sure, but GRRM would have to present (main) stuff people already know, pretending his readers don't know them.
     
  19. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2017
    Messages:
    2,084
    Gender:
    Male
    Well he's not like contracted to stick to the show I do not believe, but for what its worth he's been saying the whole time he still plans on finishing.
     
    Imaus likes this.
  20. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    8,116
    Location:
    Chicago
    Planning and doing are two different things.
     

Share This Page