Why "All Lives Matters" is wrong

[W|M]

Very doubtful. In the 20th century, up until the 1990s I would buy this (to an extent depending on how far back you are going) but now it does not stand to reason. This is another conspiracy theory and fails for the same reasons they all fail. How would any cop pull off such things?! In this day when everyone is actively searching for police misconduct, most cops go through extremely intensive education and training on how to deal with situations in the proper manner and the reward for being a whistle blowing cop is MUCH greater than whatever satisfaction you imagine a cop to get from beating innocent people and there are literally cameras everywhere. Seriously how could cops pull this off even as a hypothetical?

I am going from personal anecdotes here so I understand you doubting me but I come from a predominately black family. My father, brother, sister, niece, cousins, ...all black(my mom and me are the only white people I know in my family). As such I have almost always (I say "almost" because I myself find any white man claiming to have never had racist feelings or perceptions doubtful to say the least) been anti-racist. Most of the friends I have had in my life (by a very large number) have been black, Hispanic, Asian...non-white. I have spoken with a LOT of minorities (mostly black men) and from that I get the distinct impression that there are very few of them who actually fear the police in the way you describe and even a handful who think the BLM movement is a silly trend they aim to take advantage of if they ever get arrested (again) because this minority among blacks are thinking "Free money for life!", just like the guy in Baltimore who tried to slam his head against the police van so he could claim he was beaten but accidentally killed himself via a protruding bolt.

As Morgan Freeman and Lil' Wayne tried to say to some degree there is a LOT less actual racism going on than there is talk of racism. Sure we can look at Trump's election as indicating the converse but again I think this is the panic-stricken death throes of the white supremacist movement. They are looking at all they once were familiar with and fear the changes that have come and are still coming. They fear being the minority.

Move to Los Angeles County.

Or really, anywhere outside your own ass

 

[Timsup2nothin]

What did the cop do to deserve being called inept?

Ah, my bad, misread the question...

A cop in a vehicle approaching a person on foot should always exit their vehicle at a safe distance, so their door can't be turned into a weapon when they are halfway through it. Even if the cop is a lazy fatty and doesn't want to get out they stop at that safe distance with the person out in front of their car so that if the person flees they can at least start out with their car going forward. By pulling up close the person on foot can break and run in the direction opposite the direction the car is facing and there is no reason to give them that advantage. Basically, there is no time that a cop following proper procedures should get smacked with his own car door and have to kill or be killed as a result.

 

[Berzerker]

Riots are the language of the unheard

oh, I guess the next time I feel unheard I'll just break yer stuff

 

[Timsup2nothin]

oh, I guess the next time I feel unheard I'll just break yer stuff

If you could get to his stuff that wouldn't be terribly surprising behavior.

 

[SkeleTony]

No it doesn't. The FBI doesn't track all law enforcement killings.

I did not say they did.

Are you kidding? The guy that even you agree murdered a man, the officer who shot the man as he was running away and was caught on camera, got a mistrial because the jury couldn't even agree that he was guilty of manslaughter. This argument falls apart of its own accord.

The case I am talking about a man was driving away in his car and the cop (wrongly) shot him dead. It was a younger cop and last I hear he is in prison (I think he cut a deal with prosecution). As for the case you are referring to I don't think I am familiar but I would hasten to point out that juries often see and hear evidence the rest of us do not get to hear and cases are FAR less black and white than the anti-police crowd wants to know. The Zimmerman case is a perfect example of this. While Zimmerman is undoubtedly a douchebag with ego problems and racist feelings the case that MSNBC was promoting was not the case the jury heard. Turns out that Travon Martin was himself a huge douchebag who routinely used violence in dealing with others. The night he was killed he tried to pummel a dumb-@ss who was armed with a gun. Prosecutors could not make a case for what MSNBC were claiming because the evidence did not lead there. So while you may well believe he was 100% guilty of murder (whomever this was) that does not in itself mean he was guilty of murder. Of course he may well have been but I will wait for a refere3nce to examine before I go there.

What more is there to tell? I'll be generous and say that perhaps a third of police shootings are really justified.

How generous of you to baldly assert that 2/3rds of all the killings by police officers are unjustified (and the Rube Goldberg problem rears its head again...).

Citation?

Of those a large fraction could be prevented by implementing better practices.

Such as...? This should be an easy one for you as even I can find at least one case where this is true but you are asserting that massive numbers of police are out murdering minorities all over the place, every day, even though any incident involving a police shooting results in that officer losing his gun for a few weeks.

In other countries the police shoot proportionally far fewer people.

Not according to your ...Brazilian(?) friend up there who says that 2500 people were killed in one year where he lives and 1100 people were killed by police here in America (wherein he ignores the fact that these are almost always justified killings of violent criminals). Also I am a huge fan of Great Britain and there sensible gun control. If only America had been as sensible before we arrived at a place where gun ownership and use is glorified and irrationally defended by the worst sort of idiots. But alas we have to deal with the hand we were dealt and it is probably to late for us to do as Australia did and put a stop to this madness.

It's marginally better than it was 20 or 30 years ago, certainly not a shining beacon of justice by comparison.

Really?! I do not think you know many black people over 30 years of age. There was a time 20+ years ago (actually closer to 30+ but anyways...) when there were a lot of actual cases where cops had beaten or shot black men without any real justification at all. Now days you can count on one hand the number of times that has happened in the last few years.

Capital punishment as a whole isn't murder but it inevitably leads to murder unless you're suggesting the state never executes innocent people.

I cannot state that no one ever put to death was actually innocent but I do know that we have yet to see such a case here. Hell Barry Shreck (spelling?)'s "innocence project" got a murderer off on DNA evidence and he went and murdered another woman to try and cover up his son's rape of that woman. Then Netflix decided to pander to conspiracy theorists and do a monstrously false docu-drama about the whole thing.
This tells me DNA forensic examination is still in its infancy and can sometimes be wrongly interpreted or processed.

 

[SkeleTony]

Well, it should have. If it was a typo and you read it correctly there would be really no reason for you to respond as if you were offended. If you misread it that would at least make sense, and be easy enough to correct.

What happened was that my fingers (I am a hunt-N-Pecker typist) got ahead of my brain and I typed a word that was not even in my head really instead of the word which was in my head.

Again, how does this change my point? Is your case a linguistic one as opposed to a logical or rational one?

 

[SkeleTony]

Move to Los Angeles County.

Glib but does not make your case.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I have spoken with a LOT of minorities (mostly black men) and from that I get the distinct impression that there are very few of them who actually fear the police in the way you describe and even a handful who think the BLM movement is a silly trend they aim to take advantage of if they ever get arrested (again) because this minority among blacks are thinking "Free money for life!", just like the guy in Baltimore who tried to slam his head against the police van so he could claim he was beaten but accidentally killed himself via a protruding bolt.

FTR... The bolded appears to be referring to the police custody death of Freddie Gray.

The Baltimore Police Department suspended six officers with pay pending an investigation of Gray's death... On April 24, 2015, Police Commissioner Anthony Batts said, "We know our police employees failed to get him medical attention in a timely manner multiple times."[8] Batts also acknowledged police did not follow procedure when they failed to buckle Gray in the van while he was being transported to the police station.[8] The U.S. Department of Justice also opened an investigation into the case.[57]

On April 30, 2015, Kevin Moore, one of the witnesses who filmed Gray's arrest, was arrested at gunpoint following what Moore described as "harassment and intimidation" by police... Moore was released from custody the next day, but two other individuals who were arrested along with Moore remained in custody.[59] The same day as Moore's arrest, medical examiners reported Gray sustained more injuries as a result of slamming into the inside of the transport van, "apparently breaking his neck; a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van".[9]

If that is correct, I am curious where the "tried to slam his head against the police van so he could claim he was beaten but accidentally killed himself" story comes from?

 

[Lexicus]

There was a time 20+ years ago (actually closer to 30+ but anyways...) when there were a lot of actual cases where cops had beaten or shot black men without any real justification at all. Now days you can count on one hand the number of times that has happened in the last few years.

The part that this reminds me of occurs at 8:52

As for the case you are referring to I don't think I am familiar but I would hasten to point out that juries often see and hear evidence the rest of us do not get to hear and cases are FAR less black and white than the anti-police crowd wants to know.
[...]
Turns out that Travon Martin was himself a huge douchebag who routinely used violence in dealing with others.

So you're just faithfully reproducing the "Travyon Martin was no angel" racist meme. Congratulations. And we're supposed to believe your claim to be a "rationalist"? I highly doubt that Trayvon was any more of a douchebag than the typical 16-year-old kid (I was a supreme douchebag at that age, myself).

Again, you're trying to justify murder on the basis of racist myths and memes. It's disgusting.

The case I am talking about a man was driving away in his car and the cop (wrongly) shot him dead. It was a younger cop and last I hear he is in prison (I think he cut a deal with prosecution).

Link?

How generous of you to baldly assert that 2/3rds of all the killings by police officers are unjustified (and the Rube Goldberg problem rears its head again...).

Yes, it feels generous. It feels more like one fifth are justified or maybe one tenth.

Such as...? This should be an easy one for you as even I can find at least one case where this is true but you are asserting that massive numbers of police are out murdering minorities all over the place, every day, even though any incident involving a police shooting results in that officer losing his gun for a few weeks.

Train to de-escalate instead of escalate. Take away their guns under most circumstances. Those two would cut down on police shootings by quite a bit I imagine. The difficult (and arguably far more important, as Timsup2nothin likes to remind us) problem is changing the systemic culture of police corruption that allows police officers to routinely get away with abuse.

 

[Berzerker]

Ah, my bad, misread the question...

A cop in a vehicle approaching a person on foot should always exit their vehicle at a safe distance, so their door can't be turned into a weapon when they are halfway through it. Even if the cop is a lazy fatty and doesn't want to get out they stop at that safe distance with the person out in front of their car so that if the person flees they can at least start out with their car going forward. By pulling up close the person on foot can break and run in the direction opposite the direction the car is facing and there is no reason to give them that advantage. Basically, there is no time that a cop following proper procedures should get smacked with his own car door and have to kill or be killed as a result.

Yeah, I agree the cop made a mistake in assuming Brown wouldn't attack him, but Brown got killed because he attacked the cop a second time. If cops didn't make assumptions in favor of our innocence we'd see even more dead people.

 

[Synobun]

(I was a supreme douchebag at that age, myself).

Just at that age?

 

[Berzerker]

So you're just faithfully reproducing the "Travyon Martin was no angel" racist meme. Congratulations. And we're supposed to believe your claim to be a "rationalist"? I highly doubt that Trayvon was any more of a douchebag than the typical 16-year-old kid (I was a supreme douchebag at that age, myself).

Again, you're trying to justify murder on the basis of racist myths and memes. It's disgusting.

You beat up neighborhood watch people?

 

[Lexicus]

You beat up neighborhood watch people?

I might have, if one had followed me the way Zimmerman was following Trayvon.

 

[Berzerker]

I might have, if one had followed me the way Zimmerman was following Trayvon.

Well, Martin did... The typical 16 year old would not attack a neighborhood watch person. But what way did he follow Martin? Zimmerman lost Martin within seconds of leaving his vehicle and started talking to the cops. It was Martin who came out of hiding to confront and then attack a surprised Zimmerman. So you would have hid from a neighborhood watch person and then attack them as they came by? You were talking about supreme douchebags?

 

[Bugfatty300]

You beat up neighborhood watch people?

Zimmerman initiated the confrontation and needlessly put himself in that predicament..

 

[Sommerswerd]

Well, Martin did... The typical 16 year old would not attack a neighborhood watch person. But what way did he follow Martin? Zimmerman lost Martin within seconds of leaving his vehicle and started talking to the cops. It was Martin who came out of hiding to confront and then attack a surprised Zimmerman. So you would have hid from a neighborhood watch person and then attack them as they came by? You were talking about supreme douchebags?

I grew up in an all black neighborhood so I didn't have to worry about being stalked by neighborhood watch people... just the cops.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Even with his actions after the trial, openly revealing himself for the filthy sociopathic person that he is, so many ignorant people still defend this excrement Zimmerman.

 

[Berzerker]

Zimmerman initiated the confrontation and needlessly put himself in that predicament..

Martin initiated the confrontation... He was hiding as Zimmerman walked around talking to the dispatcher. When Zimmerman headed back to his truck to meet the cops at an entrance to the community Martin came out of hiding asking if he had a problem. He got in Zimmerman's face and proceeded to kick his butt.

I grew up in an all black neighborhood so I didn't have to worry about being stalked by neighborhood watch people... just the cops.

Oh, I'm sure the neighbors were watching... Thats what neighbors do, they look out for each other. Thats what Zimmerman was doing.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Yeah, I agree the cop made a mistake in assuming Brown wouldn't attack him, but Brown got killed because he attacked the cop a second time. If cops didn't make assumptions in favor of our innocence we'd see even more dead people.

It isn't the "assumption of innocence" that's at issue. It's that a cop isn't supposed to take risks that could escalate a situation...whether that does turn out to escalate the situation or not is also not the issue. No matter how many times they "get away with" things and don't have to shoot their way out of it there is no excuse for it.

 

[Berzerker]

Even with his actions after the trial, openly revealing himself for the filthy sociopathic person that he is, so many ignorant people still defend this excrement Zimmerman.

His life was ruined because somebody attacked him. The victim blaming reminds me of the people who persecute rape victims because they asked for it.