Why "All Lives Matters" is wrong

[Lexicus]

Relevant:

 

[Ryika]

Being policed more also creates an illusion of more crime merely because an officer is more likely to see it. Drug use and underage drinking may be just as common in urban poor area as it is in rural/suburban area. A couple dozen kids having a loud party out on some farmhouse or a couple dozen kids having a loud party in an apartment, which is more likely to have the cops show up?

True, and this probably makes up for a lot of the "petty crimes", but obvious major crimes that almost inevitably cause police investigation, such as murder, also go up in low-income neighborhoods.

 

[Farm Boy]

A couple dozen kids having a loud party out on some farmhouse or a couple dozen kids having a loud party in an apartment, which is more likely to have the cops show up?

Both happen. Though you're not going to be allowed in the house if you have a farmyard to occupy and burn stuff in instead.

 

[Bamspeedy]

True, and this probably makes up for a lot of the "petty crimes", but obvious major crimes that almost inevitably cause police investigation, such as murder, also go up in low-income neighborhoods.

I agree, it's just some like to point out that rich vs. poor, white vs. black the drug and alcohol use is pretty much the same and wonder why the poor and black get arrested more than the rich and white. Part of it may be classism or racism during sentencing or when they give one person a warning and another a ticket and arrest another guy (assuming all situations are similar and not other factors in the situation such as prior records or other crimes or complaints during the incident). But part of it the cop patrols where the people are, and the more densely populated place gets more patrols. In more populated areas you usually still have people walking around at 2 AM. In suburban/rural areas it is rare to see someone walking around at that time, a few drivers, but not walkers.

Both happen. Though you're not going to be allowed in the house if you have a farmyard to occupy and burn stuff in instead.

Yes, I know the rural house party can get busted too. What is more likely to happen, neighbors downstairs from you, or the neighbors from the next farm over, complaining about too much noise. More densely populated places have more people interacting, which has more chances of bad things happening (like assaults). Even if it turns out the assault rate between rural and urban is similar, the cop in the urban area doesn't have as much ground to cover to perhaps witness it, or at least be closer to respond to a call about it.

 

[Senethro]

Just as an aside, "virtue signalling" is such a nasty little alt-rightism. It has this mindset that everyone is as nasty as they are, but they fake virtue solely to score points.

 

[Lexicus]

Just as an aside, "virtue signalling" is such a nasty little alt-rightism. It has this mindset that everyone is as nasty as they are, but they fake virtue solely to score points.

Virtue-signalling is a thing that happens in leftist spaces all the time. Of course, the right-wing version of virtue-signalling is to see who can say the nastiest things about non-whites so, you pick your poison I guess.

 

[metalhead]

Being policed more also creates an illusion of more crime merely because an officer is more likely to see it. Drug use and underage drinking may be just as common in urban poor area as it is in rural/suburban area. A couple dozen kids having a loud party out on some farmhouse or a couple dozen kids having a loud party in an apartment, which is more likely to have the cops show up?

Judging by my privileged white high school, there couldn't possibly be more drug use and underage drinking anywhere than there was among my peers.

True, and this probably makes up for a lot of the "petty crimes", but obvious major crimes that almost inevitably cause police investigation, such as murder, also go up in low-income neighborhoods.

In some low-income neighborhoods. Not all. Probably not even most. I'd wager you can track significant upticks in things like murder and aggravated assault to specific places where violent crime provides economic opportunity superior to that generally available to most people in that neighborhood.

 

[Farm Boy]

Yes, I know the rural house party can get busted too. What is more likely to happen, neighbors downstairs from you, or the neighbors from the next farm over, complaining about too much noise. More densely populated places have more people interacting, which has more chances of bad things happening (like assaults). Even if it turns out the assault rate between rural and urban is similar, the cop in the urban area doesn't have as much ground to cover to perhaps witness it, or at least be closer to respond to a call about it.

It's not likely to be a house party. It's going to be outside, you'll have lit something on fire to sit around and people are going to notice it. Unless you're really out there where there just aren't a lot of folks. Dealing with the eventual driveby of Barney just making sure nothing is on fire that shouldn't be on fire is something you build into the night from the start.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So starting a fight with a random chump is cool as long as he's a cracker and you think you can take him?

Trayvon would have been guilty of assault for his attack on Zimmerman, while being a neighborhood watch and mistakenly following an innocent person is not a crime.

Actually, under Florida law (if equally applied) he would not have been guilty of anything. If you are being intimidated and have reasonable cause to fear for your life there is no requirement that you do anything to deescalate the situation, even before escalating it to deadly force. Martin clearly tried to walk away, which was well above the call, but when followed by what to all appearances was a dangerous man he defended himself. Of course finding a cop or judge in Florida who would have been as sympathetic to a black teenager as they were to Zimmerman would be a trick, so there is little chance of the law being equally applied.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Judging by my privileged white high school, there couldn't possibly be more drug use and underage drinking anywhere than there was among my peers.

I didn't know we went to the same school.

 

[metalhead]

Actually, under Florida law (if equally applied) he would not have been guilty of anything. If you are being intimidated and have reasonable cause to fear for your life there is no requirement that you do anything to deescalate the situation, even before escalating it to deadly force. Martin clearly tried to walk away, which was well above the call, but when followed by what to all appearances was a dangerous man he defended himself. Of course finding a cop or judge in Florida who would have been as sympathetic to a black teenager as they were to Zimmerman would be a trick, so there is little chance of the law being equally applied.

I once told my mom, in many places in America, you're significantly less likely to incur criminal liability by shooting someone, as you would be by stabbing or even punching them in the same situation. She was aghast at the thought, but it's undeniably true, and not only because dead men tell no tales (though that helps).

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I once told my mom, in many places in America, you're significantly less likely to incur criminal liability by shooting someone, as you would be by stabbing or even punching them in the same situation. She was aghast at the thought, but it's undeniably true, and not only because dead men tell no tales (though that helps).

It's easier to say "I feared for my life" when you shot someone and be believed. "I feared for my life so I beat the crap out of him" is usually met by "but you didn't have a gun so why weren't you cowering in terror?"

 

[Sommerswerd]

It's easier to say "I feared for my life" when you shot someone and be believed. "I feared for my life so I beat the crap out of him" is usually met by "but you didn't have a gun so why weren't you cowering in terror?"

This reminds me of something Farm Boy said earlier about movement branding... specifically that "Hands Up Don't Shoot!" was not as compelling a slogan as "I Can't Breathe!"... And maybe part of that is what you and metalhead are referencing... that when the cops choke somebody to death with their bare hands as he is gasping for his life it is easier to condemn their actions than when they shoot someone who is running (or fighting) for his life.

I guess the moral is that when you're being killed by the cops, just relax and let it happen, cause you'll get more sympathy after the fact..ish?

 

[Gori the Grey]

Ask them would they be so kind as to strangle you rather that shoot you.

(My) Hands (Are) Up, Don't Shoot, (Make It So) I Can't Breathe (Instead)

 

[Ryika]

This reminds me of something Farm Boy said earlier about movement branding... specifically that "Hands Up Don't Shoot!" was not as compelling a slogan as "I Can't Breathe!"... And maybe part of that is what you and metalhead are referencing... that when the cops choke somebody to death with their bare hands as he is gasping for his life it is easier to condemn their actions than when they shoot someone who is running (or fighting) for his life.

Eric Garner's case is strong, because he was a black man who was choked to death by a police officer for a minor crime with no victims. He did not resist, and because the officers didn't pay attention, and didn't seem to care too much for his well-being, he died at their hands. This is a case where the police clearly overreacted, there is nothing that even implies that what they did was justified.

Michael Brown was a black guy who had just stolen multiple packs of cigarettes from a local store and when confronted by a police officer most likely moved towards him. There were conflicting witness accounts, some of which were at least partly clashing with the actual evidence that was found, and some have admitted to lying. The witnesses that are consistent with the evidence all seem to paint the picture that Brown charged the police officer. That's why "Hands up don't shoot!" is a dumb slogan, the event that sparked people to use it, never actually happened.

I guess the moral is that when you're being killed by the cops, just relax and let it happen, cause you'll get more sympathy after the fact..ish?

No, the moral of the story is that, if you are a movement that is against police brutality, make sure you choose cases that actually showcase police brutality, and that you represent them correctly.

Eric Garner is a perfect case for police officers doing a terrible job, Michael Brown is not.

 

[Berzerker]

Garner didn't pay the taxes and then resisted arrest

 

[Senethro]

Eric Garner is a perfect case for police officers doing a terrible job, Michael Brown is not.

Nah man. A fat lazy cop got out his car within swinging distance to make a stop, instead of following procedure and approaching from a position of control.

And yes, that is his fault. The general public is drunk, irrational, frightened, on a bender, having the worst day of their lives, mentally ill or whatever. If you carry a gun you need to follow procedure and failing to do so gets people killed.

 

[Farm Boy]

No, suffocating is scarier than guns. I know what it feels like to not be able to draw breath when I want to. I've felt the primal fear begin to well up in me, its literal clawing terror. I, thank all that is good, do not know what it feels like to be shot. I know it'd be horror, every bit of it. But it's just not the same. A fear of suffocating is instinctual, a fear of guns is learned. Different strengths, fundamentally. It's also the best allegory I've come up with, suffocating pressure, for the difference in hostility black Americans face in the country that they are more intrinsically representative of than any other demographic group.

 

[Gori the Grey]

I've heard accounts that many people actually don't feel a gunshot wound, are surprised after the fact to discover that they've suffered one.

 

[Bugfatty300]

No, suffocating is scarier than guns. I know what it feels like to not be able to draw breath when I want to. I've felt the primal fear begin to well up in me, its literal clawing terror. I, thank all that is good, do not know what it feels like to be shot. I know it'd be horror, every bit of it. But it's just not the same. A fear of suffocating is instinctual, a fear of guns is learned. Different strengths, fundamentally. It's also the best allegory I've come up with, suffocating pressure, for the difference in hostility black Americans face in the country that they are more intrinsically representative of than any other demographic group.

Bullets will puncture your diaphragm and cause your lungs to collapse. If you don't immediately die from all the other trauma then you're probably going to suffocate or feel like you are.