Why aren't the Jews a playable civilisation in Civ games?

[TheLastOne36]

It seems to be based more on cultural uniqueness anyway. Therefore I'm also not going to bash anyone for suggesting Poland, Canada, or Australia as well.

What u talking about?

We were at one point the most powerful empire in Europe! Grouping us with Canada or Australia is offensive. Pleas read our history before commenting.

 

[The Almighty dF]

What u talking about?

We were at one point the most powerful empire in Europe! Grouping us with Canada or Australia is offensive. Pleas read our history before commenting.

You and every other European nation.
I hate to say it but... well... yeah. If we included every European nation that once held an edge over the rest of Europe, we'd probably wind up with -every- European nation. Which I guess we're slowly doing. We've got the Celts, which I guess they're there to represent some of the "barbarian" tribes that managed to kick civilized ass (such as everyone's favorite group of Scottish cannibals.)
...Except maybe Wales and Lichtenstein.
Though damn I want a Lichtenstein civ, just because I think it would be so hilarious to get a domination victory as Lichtenstein. A country so tiny that most maps portray it incorrectly just because it's so hard to wedge it in there.

 

[r_rolo1]

TLO remembering the days when he only had 500 posts .... They should remove the participation in Poland and HRE threads from the post count

And BTW it was not Poland that was the biggest Empire of Europe: it was the union of Poland and Lithuania ( as you know pretty well ) Maybe we should have Lithuania in Civ IV

 

[S.ilver]

The only civ missing is CANADA

Except that Canada does not deserve to be included in this game. We are:

1. Too recent.
2. Minimal world contribution or influence.
3. No claim to being or having an empire. In game mechanics, we are a released colony of GB.

Back on topic, the Jews are already in the game (Judaism). Asking for Israel to be in the game as well is absurd, as the above reasons can also be applied to it. As far as I'm concerned, in game, the Jewish State is whatever civ happens to have Judaism as their state religion.

 

[TheLastOne36]

TLO remembering the days when he only had 500 posts .... They should remove the participation in Poland and HRE threads from the post count

And BTW it was not Poland that was the biggest Empire of Europe: it was the union of Poland and Lithuania ( as you know pretty well ) Maybe we should have Lithuania in Civ IV

1. then i'd lose like 2500 posts from my postcount!!!!


2. Lithuania before Poland was an extremely poor pagan mostly unpopulated undeveloped piece of land. We're the ones that changed that. (and before the Soviets came, Lithuania was populated by over 85% Poles, the rest being mostly Jews and Ukrainians then the minority Lithuanians. All of them were replaced.)

 

[TheLastOne36]

You and every other European nation.
I hate to say it but... well... yeah. If we included every European nation that once held an edge over the rest of Europe, we'd probably wind up with -every- European nation. Which I guess we're slowly doing. We've got the Celts, which I guess they're there to represent some of the "barbarian" tribes that managed to kick civilized ass (such as everyone's favorite group of Scottish cannibals.

Since it's getting late here, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland i'll be back in the morning...

 

[The Almighty dF]

Since it's getting late here, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland i'll be back in the morning...

I know Polish history, and it (the repeated suggesting that Poland has had more of an impact than many of the other European countries featured or that fans want featured) seems more like nationalism on the part of polish players. I mean don't get me wrong, they weren't some little empire that didn't do anything whatsoever, it's just that compared to many other European nations they didn't have that much of an impact.
I will say that their culture is pretty unique, though. Or was, rather. Polish culture ended up spreading more across east europe during the USSR, so it's not entirely unique anymore (though you can say that they had it first.) That's why I'm putting them in the same group as Australia, Canada, Ireland, etc.

Honestly, I kinda wonder if they would instead make an Centralish-Eastern European group-civ, like how they made a Scandinavian group-civ.

 

[Bigfoot3814]

We were at one point the most powerful empire in Europe! Grouping us with Canada or Australia is offensive. Pleas read our history before commenting.

I guess offending Canada or Australia doesn't matter.

 

[Gudinsdiv]

You and every other European nation.
I hate to say it but... well... yeah. If we included every European nation that once held an edge over the rest of Europe, we'd probably wind up with -every- European nation. Which I guess we're slowly doing. We've got the Celts, which I guess they're there to represent some of the "barbarian" tribes that managed to kick civilized ass (such as everyone's favorite group of Scottish cannibals.)
...Except maybe Wales and Lichtenstein.
Though damn I want a Lichtenstein civ, just because I think it would be so hilarious to get a domination victory as Lichtenstein. A country so tiny that most maps portray it incorrectly just because it's so hard to wedge it in there.

European:
England
France
Spain
Portugal
Rome
Greece
HRE
Germany
Russia
Netherlands
Celts
Vikings

Middle-Eastern:
Ottoman
Persian
Babylonian
Egyptian
Carthagian
Sumerian

Asian:
China
Mongolia
Korea
Japan
Khmer
India

Western Hemisphere:
American
Native American
Aztec
Mayan
Incan

African:
Mali
Ethiopia

I probably missed some. Point being, Europe is well covered, as is the Middle East, really, with or without an Israeli civ.

We need more from Africa and Asia, I think. Tibet, for instance, and maybe Liberia.

And why not Jamaica?

 

[unclethrill]

Bob and Doug McKenzie could be the leaders for Canada!

 

[say1988]

Note, you have 12 European vs. 10 Asian civs. Byzantines could be added to either, or both.
Carthage is definately African. The original Phoenicians came from the Middle East, but they aren't Carthage. And Egypt and Ethiopia are Africans. That brings them to 5, the same as the Americas.

I seriously hope Liberia is a joke. I don't know much about Africa, but Liberia better be a joke.

 

[frekk]

We've got the Celts, which I guess they're there to represent some of the "barbarian" tribes that managed to kick civilized ass (such as everyone's favorite group of Scottish cannibals.)

I don't really agree with several of the European civs, like Netherlands, Portugal, HRE, but the Celts are a must. They represent practically the whole of Iron Age Western European civilization, (eg England, France, Spain, southern Germany, parts of the Baltics and all the way east to just north of Macedonia) and were alot more sophisticated than most people realize. They invented iron ploughs, chain mail, belt buckles, scissors, horseshoes, soap, and many other things. Even the Romans stole the gladius and the style for their helmets (Montefortino, Imperial Gallic and Coolus designs were all Celtic designs) from the Celts. They were even decent shipbuilders; the Veneti appear to have built very large sailing craft, much larger than Roman ships, in a design that may have been something like an oversized medieval cog.

So, yeah ... huge territory, large population, enormous historical and technological impact, a period of impressive military achievements (eg the sack of Rome and Classical Greece by the two Brennus characters), and a cultural impact that persists to the present day ... they get my vote.

 

[brucedecatz]

For those who insist that playing a Jewish instead of a Hebrew civ makes no sense, and go on to dismiss the Hebrew state was too unimportant, here is my thought on this:

We have civs in the games as the English, the French, the Germans, the Chinese. We do not have them as the Anglo-Saxons, the Franks, the Goths, the Vandals or the Hans (not the Huns, though some may argue that they deserve a place as well). By the logic that one has to play as the Hebrews and not the Jews, then the same thing applies to the Anglo-Saxons or the Vandals.

It is not the original manifestation as a ethnic-nation-state that defines a civilisation, but their level of sophistication, the extent of cultural influence and the achievement of military might that the said group has accomplished over the ages that does.

The Jews, as some people have pointed out, are a special case. Their claim to a large empire is a laughing case, their military might non-existent for a long time, but their cultural influence long and profound, and what makes them superior to the Egyptians or the Romans or the Byzantines, is that they managed to survive and have a modern nation-state, which looks up Solomon and David as their forefathers. The length of their cultural consistency may only be matched by the Chinese. The longevity somewhat makes up for their lack of military might (and for goodness sack, they have it now!) and an empire.

Let me summarise: empire, culture, and military are what makes a solid civ in the game, I doubt anyone disagree on that. Some civs have all three, English (or rather British), American, Roman, Greek, or Chinese. Some lack one or two, Mongolian (culture), Dutch (military), etc. Some has none, like Korean and HRE. With all these in mind, can we not have the Jews kicking out the Koreans? (and pro/fin suits them rather well) But to keep the market in Korea, maybe we should leave the Koreans in and simply add the Jews for something else.

 

[r_rolo1]

Jew = Judean = From tribe of Judah =/= Hebrew ( remember the 10 lost tribes ).

In fact, if we go that line, we should have Luxembourg instead of HRE...... technically they are one of the last fragments of it.

 

[vsipinen]

Middle-Eastern:
Ottoman
Persian
Babylonian
Egyptian
Carthagian
Sumerian

Why have you listed Egyptian and Carthagian as Middle-Eastern civilizations ? Both Egypt and Carthage are - or were - in Africa. Egypt is of course quite near Middle East, but Carthage was in North Africa nowhere near Middle East.

 

[r_rolo1]

Carthage was definitely a Semitic culture and ancient Egyptians never saw themselfes as Africans ( that was reserved to Lybians and Nubians )

 

[say1988]

If that is what he meant, then he should say what he means.
There is a wide difference between "semitic culture" and Middle East.

Though Egypt is [at least in my experience] considered part of the Middle East as well as Africa presently.

 

[r_rolo1]

Carthage basically was a Phoenician city that, by accident, was located in Northern Africa Their culture, their gods ( they even gone pilgrinage to Tyre ), their language.. all of that was a direct Middle eastern package... If you want to call it African, I'm cool with it, but then you need to take Miletus, Efesus, Massillia, Syracuse, etc... from Greece.....

 

[Bigfoot3814]

African:
Mali
Ethiopia

We need more from Africa and Asia, I think. Tibet, for instance, and maybe Liberia.

And why not Jamaica?

You forgot the Zulu for Africa. Maybe "Native Carribean" or something instead of Jamaica, and Ghana instead of Liberia. Liberia's all torn up from it's civil wars, although it has a fascinating history. Ghana, while it had its troubles, is doing quite well right now compared to its neighbors. It would be a good modern representation for Africa.

As for Asia, I say the Phillipenes.

 

[frekk]

Why have you listed Egyptian and Carthagian as Middle-Eastern civilizations ? Both Egypt and Carthage are - or were - in Africa. Egypt is of course quite near Middle East, but Carthage was in North Africa nowhere near Middle East.

Bah! This old nonsense.

Egypt, Carthage, Rome, Greece, the Phoenicians (especially the Phoenicians) were Meditteranean primarily. They had far more in common with each other than they did with cultures inland on their respective continents. The Meditteranean was their hub of cultural exchange and identity, not the continents. Why people insist on classifying them by continent (or even along racial lines) is a mystery to me, these cultures themselves certainly did not.