Why Can't The Left Win?

[El_Machinae]

They don't attack the news media, except when convenient. Trump promotes Hannity, and he did it hoping to win points with his base. Hannity is very much not news, even.

Though, I shouldn't conflate Trump with Republicans, I'll grant. American news is a choice between pap designed to give money to AT&T shareholders or to the Murdoch family.

Should be troubling that Fox editorials have the President's ear, if Republicans were actually really cautious about mainstream media, I'd think.

If I said I was worried about MSG, one would think I'd comment if my dad ate a lot of Chinese buffet

 

[rah]

I think praising the Founding Fathers really does a disservice to all the people who sat on the fence during the War for Independence, don't you?

That's the problem. Your limited thinking is that moderates are sitting on the fence. Moderates make decisions, but you don't always agree with those decisions so claim we don't. Good for you.

 

[Traitorfish]

That's the problem. Your limited thinking is that moderates are sitting on the fence. Moderates make decisions, but you don't always agree with those decisions so claim we don't. Good for you.

The left is perfectly prepared to recognise and criticise moderates for their decisions. A moderate took Britain into the Iraq War, for instance, a decision that has prompted no little discussion in this country. On the contrary, "we believe in nothing, have no program, and no policies" is how the centre presents itself. We're just repeating this without agreeing that this is somehow a sign of great wisdom.

 

[Ajidica]

That's the problem. Your limited thinking is that moderates are sitting on the fence. Moderates make decisions, but you don't always agree with those decisions so claim we don't. Good for you.

Can you point out any specific policy or program in the last 20 years or so that was conceived, popularized, and promoted by moderates that ended up either becoming law or becoming very darn close to becoming law?
From where I'm sitting, it seems in politics that 'moderates' are the ones who always try and wait on an issue* until someone else has done the hard work, and then water-down the policy so it can secure the oh-so essential 'support'.

*A problem that seems to affect left-wing policies primarily. I'm really struggling to think of any 'moderate Republicans' in Congress that were like 'we won't vote on the Tax Bill until you make the following changes to moderate its stupidity'. The few that raised even some objections were almost all bought off with literal giveaways like the Corker Kickback.

 

[Traitorfish]

Where did I say that? Access to healthcare and totally free healthcare are two different issues.

That is absolutely dependent on how much money you have.

 

[Lexicus]

Can you point out any specific policy or program in the last 20 years or so that was conceived, popularized, and promoted by moderates that ended up either becoming law or becoming very darn close to becoming law?

I think this question risks running into the problem that to moderates all worthwhile policy that succeeds in becoming law must have been moderate because otherwise it couldn't have succeeded.

 

[Commodore]

I think that's because I'm pretty sure no decent person considers, even for a moment, messages of "equality for everyone, and help for those who need it" to be a problem.

Except that's not the message of the left.

 

[rah]

Thinking there are only two sides ever is silly.
And think how many things (like gay marriage) would still be illegal if not for the moderates.
Moderates have the advantage of making up their own minds. Sorry if they don't always agree with you.
But that's your problem, not mine.
It's going to take a lot longer for the left to take the senate, but they can take it from the right sooner if the moderates go along with it.
Ignore the center at your own risk.

 

[Ajidica]

And think how many things (like gay marriage) would still be illegal if not for the moderates.

Can you elaborate how you came to this conclusion? The idea of extending legal recognition of marriage to same-sex couples was a pretty radical idea for a while, and unless I'm badly misremembering my history from the 2000s and early 2010s, extending marriage rights to same sex couples was not widely supported by 'moderates', who seemed to barely accept civil unions.

Moderates have the advantage of making up their own minds. Sorry if they don't always agree with you.

 

[rah]

And if moderates hadn't come around it would still not be a right. Even Obama wouldn't support it originally. When I was younger I didn't support it but eventually joined marches and raised funds for those sympathetic to the cause. You can ignore that if it makes you feel like we're evil and you're morally superior. As long as it got done. Many social issues had to wait for a majority to support it. That majorities traditionally included the moderates.

 

[Ajidica]

And if moderates hadn't come around it would still not be a right. Even Obama wouldn't support it originally. When I was younger I didn't support it but eventually joined marches and raised funds for those sympathetic to the cause. You can ignore that if it makes you feel like we're evil and you're morally superior. As long as it got done. Many social issues had to wait for a majority to support it. That majorities traditionally included the moderates.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I'm not seeing how the 'moderate' position is different from fence-sitting, waiting for other people to do all the hard work, laying the legal groundwork, making it an issue for people to care about, changing 'hearts and minds'. Then once all the hard parts are done, as you present it the moderates swoop in and claim it was all thanks to them Making Decisions, like an Urbane The Decider.

I fully accept that there can be principled 'moderates' who have their own clearly thought out positions that are separate from the left and right, like John Anderson, but honestly, the way you are presenting 'moderate' in politics appears pretty morally and intellectually bankrupt, forever latching on to someone elses ideas with little as your own, not unlike a ship without a rudder pulled by the tides.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Can you point out any specific policy or program in the last 20 years or so that was conceived, popularized, and promoted by moderates that ended up either becoming law or becoming very darn close to becoming law?

The obvious example is the ACA, especially in light of everyone here branding Obama as the consummate centrist. You could also view his Commercial Crew and Cargo efforts as moderate alternatives to traditional NASA bloat (but an equally good case that they are radical giveaways to capitalists). And I do think at least on gay marriage, it was the center turning on the issue that made it possible.

I agree with you on pretty much everything else though. I'd also like to point out that at least @rah is engaging in good faith arguing, even if we're all dogging on him pretty hard. It's frustratingly rare to get someone from a very different political viewpoint to actually talk about issues and not gaslight everyone about goddamn Clinton's emails or whatever.

 

[Arwon]

Just so we're clear here, in the last page or so, "moderate" is being used here as "between the median positions of the elected representatives of the two major US political parties" right?

Cos um. Nah.

 

[schlaufuchs]

I'm with Ajidica here. Retroactively claiming sole credit for Marriage Equality because you hopped off the fence in 2006 or whatever and finally joined the right side of history, rather than, you know, the thousands upon thousands of LGBTs and Leftist allies who spent the better part of 40 years marching and fighting and bleeding and LITERALLY dying for those rights to be recognized is pretty fudging rich, dude.

Next you're going to tell me that suffrage, abolition, the NRLB, and social security were also the sole product of moderates.

 

[Zardnaar]

Here it was the right who signed gay marriage into law.

Left did do civil unions but they lost support from their Polynesian side of their supporters.

The right also did the human rights act 1993.

NZ probably atypical we don't really have conservatives here. They're laser focused on tax cuts, deregulation etc they're socially liberal or pragmatic at least to not oppose things. Those types of votes are concsience votes anyway

 

[Cloud_Strife]

And where did I say that? I never said what was worst. Your hatred blinds you as much as it does the right. You really should check that since it makes you sound just as bad as them. Another example of why being in the middle is disliked by all. Just because I don't always agree with everything you say does not make me an alt right monster.

Did i say you were?

I think it's insane, literally insane that people can look at the concept of free or socialized healthcare and go "this is too far for me" but otherwise sit on their asses whilst this president continues to flaunt both rules and norms or be content to do nothing whilst the GOP literally condemns people to death through inaction at best and at worst targetted discrimination.

And cool, you can keep claiming disengenuously about how it's just a lack of agreement, but we're talking peoples lives here! What about that do you not get?

Why don't you go down to your nearest economically struggling family, hit by a bill from the hospital and let them know that you politely disagree with the concept of not being milked for money in a supposedly 1st world country and how that doesn't make you, at best, indifferent to their suffering.

Thinking there are only two sides ever is silly.
And think how many things (like gay marriage) would still be illegal if not for the moderates.
Moderates have the advantage of making up their own minds. Sorry if they don't always agree with you.
But that's your problem, not mine.
It's going to take a lot longer for the left to take the senate, but they can take it from the right sooner if the moderates go along with it.
Ignore the center at your own risk.

What are you talking about? Moderates had to be socially shamed and dragged to that position, they didn't end up there through any actual thought of their own, give me a break! They say on their hands until it was conveniant for them to accept us and only until it was no longer as socially bad to do so, they risked nothing!

Moderates are the same people who want the left to compromise their politics, bringing them ever closer to the right, moderates are the same people who kvetch about the current situation but defend the status quo out of some extreme fear of any real progressive alternative, moderates are the fencesitters who cannot bring themselves to do anything about anything.

 

[Zardnaar]

Did i say you were?

I think it's insane, literally insane that people can look at the concept of free or socialized healthcare and go "this is too far for me" but otherwise sit on their asses whilst this president continues to flaunt both rules and norms or be content to do nothing whilst the GOP literally condemns people to death through inaction at best and at worst targetted discrimination.

And cool, you can keep claiming disengenuously about how it's just a lack of agreement, but we're talking peoples lives here! What about that do you not get?

Why don't you go down to your nearest economically struggling family, hit by a bill from the hospital and let them know that you politely disagree with the concept of not being milked for money in a supposedly 1st world country and how that doesn't make you, at best, indifferent to their suffering.



What are you talking about? Moderates had to be socially shamed and dragged to that position, they didn't end up there through any actual thought of their own, give me a break! They say on their hands until it was conveniant for them to accept us and only until it was no longer as socially bad to do so, they risked nothing!

Moderates are the same people who want the left to compromise their politics, bringing them ever closer to the right, moderates are the same people who kvetch about the current situation but defend the status quo out of some extreme fear of any real progressive alternative, moderates are the fencesitters who cannot bring themselves to do anything about anything.

Did moderates flip to Trump?
Attacking them probably won't endear them to you even Trump doesn't do that.

I wouldn't worry unless the support Trump 2020. Based on 2018 it seems they're opposed to Trump.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Bernie was rejected because moderates couldn't stomach someone not as fence-sitting as they, instead we got Clinton and then we got Trump.

 

[Zardnaar]

Bernie was rejected because moderates couldn't stomach someone not as fence-sitting as they, instead we got Clinton and then we got Trump.

I think that was more the DNC and liberals jumping on the "she's a women" bandwagon. Name recognition as well.

Personally I would have voted for Clinton, but would have preferred Bernie. He had better numbers vs Trump.

 

[rah]

Fence sitting
I was marching for gay rights way before many so called leftists were. You guys have no idea what you're talking about.
Moderates make up their own minds on how they come down on the issues and decide WHEN they do. I wasn't shamed into anything.

And your attempts to shame are just another form of bullying.