Why did God create atheists?

[ironduck]

There isn't any room for interpretation on how to avoid the ultimate punishment, as you put it. Anyone falling short of salvation deserves to be doomed to hell. What isn't precisely laid out in the Bible is the role that God's grace and mercy plays in the fate of people who do indeed fall short.

So since I'm one of those screw-ups, could you tell me how to avoid the ultimate punishment? Just wondering.

And why do I need to be punished anyway? What good comes out of that?

 

[Micaelis Rex]

Ironduck basically said this just now, but if the requirements are certain and definate, then why be vague about telling them? Is he hoping that his followers will figure it out for themselves? We all know how well that has turned out.

No, you misunderstand what I am trying to say. The requirements are laid out there in the Bible for all to see, they are not concealed. The only thing that is vauge is the role that the grace of God plays in the salvation of certain people who never had the opportunity to convert to Christianity. It is absurd to think that Moses and Elijah will be thrown into hell because they lived before Jesus, and thus could not become Christians. Jesus even said to the man next to him on the cross that he will be in paradise with him when he dies. That man never accepted salvation by any conventional means, but he is going to heaven anyway because of the grace of God.

 

[Micaelis Rex]

So since I'm one of those screw-ups, could you tell me how to avoid the ultimate punishment? Just wondering.

And why do I need to be punished anyway? What good comes out of that?

Neither question is really within the scope of this debate, but I'll try to give you a brief overview of the answers as I understand them. First, you avoid going to hell by accepting the gift of salvation that God provided for humanity when Jesus lived as a human, died on the cross, and rose again three days later. For more information see the NT book of Romans. Second, humanity's punishment isn't something God intended, rather, it is the result of original sin. Adam separated himself from God by sinning, and thus doomed humanity to hell. God provided a way to atone for sin through Jesus.

 

[ironduck]

Neither question is really within the scope of this debate, but I'll try to give you a brief overview of the answers as I understand them. First, you avoid going to hell by accepting the gift of salvation that God provided for humanity when Jesus lived as a human, died on the cross, and rose again three days later. For more information see the NT book of Romans. Second, humanity's punishment isn't something God intended, rather, it is the result of original sin. Adam separated himself from God by sinning, and thus doomed humanity to hell. God provided a way to atone for sin through Jesus.

But how am I supposed to receive a gift of salvation from someone I've never met? If this god wants me to receive a gift, a good way to start would be hooking up with me and letting me know about it. Or so I would think. Christians always quote the Bible, but why is that relevant? Why not just talk to the god of which you speak and have him explain things that you don't understand instead of trying to find the answers in that book? Similarly, why tell others about these things and not just let this god do it? Direct communication tends to work a lot better than a book people have been disagreeing about for hundreds of years.

Likewise, why am I guilty of something some human did thousands of years ago? It's like saying you are guilty because your great great great grandfather once stole a pumpkin pie. How can that be your fault?

I find the 'original sin' to be the nastiest, lowest, vilest way people have forced others into submission in the history of Christianity.

 

[cgannon64]

Pretend for a moment, IronDuck, that original sin didn't exist. Every human is born with a clean slate, until he sins.

Even with that, hasn't every human being ever (with the exception of ) sinned? Can't you see that Original Sin is just a way of pointing out that everyone inherits the original sin in that each one of us has an inevitable disposition towards sinfulness?

 

[ironduck]

Pretend for a moment, IronDuck, that original sin didn't exist. Every human is born with a clean slate, until he sins.

Even with that, hasn't every human being ever (with the exception of ) sinned? Can't you see that Original Sin is just a way of pointing out that everyone inherits the original sin in that each one of us has an inevitable disposition towards sinfulness?

That really depends on what you consider 'sin'.

The problem I have with the concept of original sin is that people have done something wrong before they have done anything at all. They're guilty of being born. It is the most oppressive way to control another person I can think of.

 

[ironduck]

in that each one of us has an inevitable disposition towards sinfulness?

I forgot to comment on this one. If we have an inevitable disposition towards sinfulness, where does that leave free will?

 

[cgannon64]

It leaves free will exactly where it stood.

A disposition towards something doesn't negate the free will of the person who falls into it. When people who have a history of alcoholism in their family, don't you still blame them for becoming alcoholics, at least partially?

 

[Lord_all_Mighty]

I forgot to comment on this one. If we have an inevitable disposition towards sinfulness, where does that leave free will?

Well, to be fair, having a disposition doesn't mean you will commit the "sin", so technically you still have a choice.

But this raises another question: as pointed out earlier in this thread, evidence is mounting that the genetic make-up of an individual can heavily influence his or her actions in life (Homosexuality is a good example, as it is labeled a "sin" by the christian church) then why is it harder for some individuals not to "sin"?

 

[ironduck]

You said inevitable disposition.

Also, why would this god create people with a disposition to do bad things? Why not create them with a disposition to do good?

Personally, I don't feel I have a disposition to do bad. I think I have a strong disposition to do good. In other words, I think you are incredibly wrong. Your source is a book. My source is real life - myself.

 

[Colonel]

God created atheists because I am God and I wanted to have disbelievers. An answer from your creator himself.

 

[ironduck]

Ack, I should have quoted so I didn't end up between two - it was for cgannon obviously.

Also, I still have not got a reply to what is considered 'sin', and I have asked this question several times in this thread now.

 

[cgannon64]

You said inevitable disposition.

Yes, I suppose there is a bit of contradiction in words there. What I meant was: People have a disposition to sin, and it, through their free will, inevitably manifests itself as sin.

Also, why would this god create people with a disposition to do bad things? Why not create them with a disposition to do good?

Don't you know the Genesis story? God made us good, we screwed it up, now we have a dispositions to do bad...

Personally, I don't feel I have a disposition to do bad. I think I have a strong disposition to do good. In other words, I think you are incredibly wrong. Your source is a book. My source is real life - myself.

Even if you are a good person most of the time, and I'm sure you are, you still screw up and sin every now and then, don't you? So then, aren't you still disposed to sin?

 

[Narz]

Here's a helpful essay on the influence of Western Religion :
http://www.untamedlife.com/book/chapter6.php

 

[Yom]

Have you ever watched a DVD or video a 2nd time? You knew the outcome, correct? But did you control the outcome? No. This is a sample of what it is like to have an advantage in time. Knowing the choices that are made, because you've already seen them, does not necessarily mean you had an input into those choices.

This is a flawed analogy. What will happen is predetermined in this case, meaning that there is no free will, and God cannot intervene in mortal affairs. He may know what's going to happen, but he can't change it, and neither can the players (according to your analogy).

No. Basically what I am saying, is that to grasp this concept, you need to think outside your timeline. This can be done, as mathematicians and physicists have demonstrated through string theory. However, we cannot act outside our timeline. God can.

Thinking outside of your timeline doesn't explain away the breach in logic in allowing free will as well as knowing what will happen in the future. If God simply knows the possible outcomes, then He does not know what will happen (since He does not know what a person's choice will be), making him not omniscient.

God still intervenes in our timeline, however, even today. He heals the sick. He changes people's hearts. He rescues people from certain death. None of this is pre-determined. God not only can be in 2 places at the same time, He can be in 2 times at the same place!

If you believe that God intervenes, then the DVD analogy is not applicable, unless the person watching has access to editing equipment.

 

[ironduck]

Yes, I suppose there is a bit of contradiction in words there. What I meant was: People have a disposition to sin, and it, through their free will, inevitably manifests itself as sin.

Maybe I'm too tired, but I fail to see the distinction. If people - all people - have a disposition to sin, and that disposition inevitably means that they will sin, that to me is the same as saying people will inevitably sin. In other words, it does away with free will, to a degree at least. Since we are not 100% able to avoid sinning - it will inevitably manifest itself, as you said.

Don't you know the Genesis story? God made us good, we screwed it up, now we have a dispositions to do bad...

I have read most of the Bible, including the Genesis a number of times. Your point is? I'll tell you what my point is - I mentioned it above. It's a book. It doesn't make anything true.

Even if you are a good person most of the time, and I'm sure you are, you still screw up and sin every now and then, don't you? So then, aren't you still disposed to sin?

If I'm a good person most of the time and do a lot more good than bad (i.e. 'sin') then surely that means I'm not predisposed to sin, rather it seems I'm predisposed to be good - if I'm predisposed to be anything at all.

 

[cgannon64]

Maybe I'm too tired, but I fail to see the distinction. If people - all people - have a disposition to sin, and that disposition inevitably means that they will sin, that to me is the same as saying people will inevitably sin. In other words, it does away with free will, to a degree at least. Since we are not 100% able to avoid sinning - it will inevitably manifest itself, as you said.

I am saying that people have inevitably sinned because, historically, every single person who wasn't has sinned.

I have read most of the Bible, including the Genesis a number of times. Your point is? I'll tell you what my point is - I mentioned it above. It's a book. It doesn't make anything true.

Of course it doesn't, but aren't we debating the Christian viewpoint? Aren't I allowed to bring up the ultimate Christian text in an argument about Christianity?

If I'm a good person most of the time and do a lot more good than bad (i.e. 'sin') then surely that means I'm not predisposed to sin, rather it seems I'm predisposed to be good - if I'm predisposed to be anything at all.

Predisposed has nothing to do with what you do the majority of the time, just what you do in general.

 

[Narz]

Man, this is getting dull, you guys have fun...

 

[Narz]

regardless of sin or heaven or hell or any of that nonsense read some history and see what effect Christianity has had on the world, or check the link I posted above

 

[Micaelis Rex]

But how am I supposed to receive a gift of salvation from someone I've never met? If this god wants me to receive a gift, a good way to start would be hooking up with me and letting me know about it. Or so I would think. Christians always quote the Bible, but why is that relevant? Why not just talk to the god of which you speak and have him explain things that you don't understand instead of trying to find the answers in that book? Similarly, why tell others about these things and not just let this god do it? Direct communication tends to work a lot better than a book people have been disagreeing about for hundreds of years.

There is a good deal of direct communication between God and man going on. The Bible is God's official handbook to how to live life think of it as "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth". Of course I'm going to quote that.

Likewise, why am I guilty of something some human did thousands of years ago? It's like saying you are guilty because your great great great grandfather once stole a pumpkin pie. How can that be your fault?

Well, let me assure you, you have sinned at some point in your life. What Adam did caused a "sinful nature" to take over mankind, and that sinful nature passed from generation to generation. That nature in essence causes man to sin, and the only thing that stops man from sinning is God.

I find the 'original sin' to be the nastiest, lowest, vilest way people have forced others into submission in the history of Christianity.

That's funny, I find torture, persecution, and death to be far worse than the truth.