Why do you support gun ownership?

[Pyrite]

"While the NSA phone taps may support this, if the government didn't care about the Constitution, they would have done something about it by now. The Constitution is still highly respected."
This has been going on far before the neo-cons and their ilk. It's prior to the civil war that the constitution experienced erosion with the beginning of a more powerful federal government and state rights being lost. And what exactly would the government do if it didn't respect the constitution? Repeal it? I'm not saying their is a vast government conspiracy, but power tends to become centralized over time, and it's simply the nature of governments for this to occur. The constitution stands against this, and therefore is somewhat anachronistic that we say that we abide by it. The right to bear arms is gone, and has been gone since the 70s. The right to due process is extremely unreliable. The right against unwarranted searches and seizures is also gone. Freedom of association is gone. We cannot say that we follow the ideals of the constitution when every action we make is directly contrary. And the government should oppose the farce? Why? Power is collecting in odd places without anyone raising a hand, so why should anything be done officially when it can all be done through the back door?

 

[tombeef]

All the way back to the 1700's politicians suggested (and may have) spied on civilians. People were wrongly searched, accused, hanged, etc., all throughout American history. While I completely agree with you in that our government is gathering too much power to itself, this isn't neccesarily a first time occurance.

 

[luiz]

I support gun ownership because I have the right to self-defense. Clearly the state does not provide perfect safety (not even close to that), so I have the right to defend myself when needed.

 

[.Shane.]

It's prior to the civil war that the constitution experienced erosion with the beginning of a more powerful federal government and state rights being lost.

I'm calling shenanigans.

What, precisely, where these "erosions" prior to the Civil War? This is myth.

 

[Sidhe]

I support gun ownership because animals need to die.

Yes but the human are animals thing aside do you really need a sight that makes long range shooting easy and an armour peircing round to kill an animal, and does the meat taste better when loaded with semi automatic rounds

Man take a bow out learn how to track and earn your kill, shooting something from long range that you haven't even bothered using any skill to kill is pretty lame.

 

[tombeef]

Yes but the human are animals thing aside do you really need a sight that makes long range shooting easy and an armour peircing round to kill an animal, and does the meat taste better when loaded with semi automatic rounds

Seriously, does one need to load 100 bullets into an animal to kill it?

 

[Gladi]

Bright day
I support gun ownership for:
Self-defense
Hunting
Sport
Collectibiliy
Something to shoot that pig/sheep/whatever you have painstakingly raised and now want to roast.

 

[Masquerouge]

There is no link between gun ownership and personal safety. Countries can have gun ownership or not, and a high or a low crime rate independently.

 

[downtown]

I support gun ownership. There are plenty of areas in my country where the law does not provide good enough protection (say, South DC). Banning guns doesnt take guns out of the hands of bad guys.

Also, i enjoy hunting.

Not worried about foriegn invasion, or the goverment...I think physical threats from both are very unlikely, and a Matt Brown with a handgun isn't going to be an effective stopgap.

 

[MobBoss]

Yes but the human are animals thing aside do you really need a sight that makes long range shooting easy and an armour peircing round to kill an animal, and does the meat taste better when loaded with semi automatic rounds

Man take a bow out learn how to track and earn your kill, shooting something from long range that you haven't even bothered using any skill to kill is pretty lame.

Sidhe, have you ever been on a hunt, any type of hunt in your life? Considering what I know of you the answer is most likely you have not. Using a gun to shoot an animal from long range does not equate to easy or lame. Hunting can be challenging, whether a modern rifle is used, black powder rifle or even a bow.

Btw, the meat tastes the same regardless of the tool used to kill the animal.

I support gun ownership for a variety of reasons.

 

[MobBoss]

I dont.

Facts are very rarely gun ownership saves lives.

Wrong. Do you have anything to back this up? Gun ownership can and does save lives.

More often it leads to children getting shot to shooting someone or a overzealous homeowner goes and shoots a trespasser.

No. Its not more often than not. However, those are precisely the type of stories that get instant and wide media attention. You tend not to hear much about the potential car jacker run off when the driver displays his/her weapon.

They save lives occasionally, but facts are more innocent lives are taken by gun ownership.

Not fact at all. Once again please back your facts up if you can.

 

[Abaddon]

Where do they hold their guns?

I'm just having this weird image of a policman yelling "I'll club you to death!" while keeping a distance from the armed thug.

they dont carry them, if backups called for, they will come armed direct from the police station.


the yell "put the gun down" from a distance and if they dont get a response, call for armed backup.

 

[Abaddon]

oh, heres some quick google proof:


Gun Violence in America

Firearms are the second leading cause of traumatic death related to a consumer product in the United States and are the second most frequent cause of death overall for Americans ages 15 to 24. Since 1960, more than a million Americans have died in firearm suicides, homicides, and unintentional injuries. In 2001 alone, 30,242 Americans died by gunfire: 17,108 in firearm suicides, 12,129 in firearm homicides, 762 in unintentional shootings, and 243 in firearm deaths of unknown intent, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. Nearly three times that number are treated in emergency rooms each year for nonfatal firearm injuries.

http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/phil.html

 

[Tycoon101]

the yell "put the gun down" from a distance and if they dont get a response, call for armed backup.

3 dead and 6 injured people later the backup arrives on the scene and asks if the man can disarm.

That is flawed in too many ways.


Oh, and Abbadon- 5 years is a fairly long time. I do believe that the facts have changed of the course of 5 years.

 

[Pyrite]

"With many Federalists advocating war against a major power, France, Federalists in Congress, in 1798, passed the laws which they asserted would protect national security in the United States and which sought to silence internal opposition. They were similar to laws passed at about the same time in the United Kingdom and Canada in response to the threat of subversion by agents of the radical French government. Jeffersonians, however, recognized that the laws were to be used as a tool of the ruling Federalist party to extend and retain their power, silencing any opposition. Because most immigrants became Democratic-Republicans, the Naturalization Act's longer residency requirement meant that fewer of them could become citizens and vote against the Federalists. Under the Alien and Alien Enemies Acts, the president could deport any "dangerous" or "enemy" alien — a law that is still in effect in 2006."

"The Espionage Act of 1917 was a United States federal law passed shortly after entering World War I, on June 15, 1917, which made it a crime for a person to convey information with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the armed forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies. It was punishable by a $USD 10,000 fine and 20 years in prison. The legislation was passed at the urging of President Woodrow Wilson, who feared any widespread dissent in time of war constituted a real threat to an American victory."

"The Sedition Act forbade Americans to use "disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language" about the United States government, flag, or armed forces during war. The act also allowed the Postmaster General to deny mail delivery to dissenters of government policy during wartime."

"the Constitution resolved the conflict in the Supremacy Clause in Article VI in favor of the federal government, which declares federal law the "supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

Argument for more state rights.."Resolved, that the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government; but that by compact under the style and title of a Constitution for the United States and of amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for special purposes, delegated to that government certain definite powers, reserving each State to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force: That to this compact each State acceded as a State, and is an integral party, its co-States forming, as to itself, the other party....each party has an equal right to judge for itself, as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress."

"The Civil War itself and its Constitutional amendments revolved around whether America would become an indestructible union, or a collection of states under a Federal Government. By the beginning of the 20th Century, greater cooperation began to grow between the State and Federal Governments, and soon the Federal Government began to gain more power. It was early in this development that the National Income Tax was implemented. Before this, the State had been the highest form of government to which people had to pay taxes, but now another level was added, creating a sense of higher authority for the Federal Government. Soon following this implementation was the Great Depression and then World War II, during which time the Federal Government continued to take on more authority. Following World War II, during the Presidency of Lyndon B. Johnson, there was a great increase of Federal regulations and power. However, since his Presidency, there has been great debate about the amount of power the Federal Government should have, as Americans have become much more cautious about these Federal regulations. States' rights are also defined in the body of the constitution itself."

Wiki. State rights, Alien and sedition acts. Bill of rights.

 

[Abaddon]

Facts On Gun Deaths In The USA:

The Americans value their constitution and the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment deals with the right to bear arms. Here is the price that ordinary Americans are paying for the privilege

- 8 children a day die in murders, suicides and accidents involving guns

- since John F. Kennedy was assinated more Americans have died from gunshot wounds at home than died in all the wars of the 20th century

- Osama bin Laden would need at least nine twin towers like attacks each year to equal what Americans do to themselves every year with guns.

- Murder rates in LA, NY and Chigago were approaching the hightest in the world (30 per 100,000) until moves were made in late 20th century to restrict access to guns to teenagers. (The NRA wants these moves reversed)

If Osama bin Laden had had more sense, instead of launching a terrorist attack, he would simply have provided financial backing to the NRA.

It is all very well to spout figures but the fact that this post seems to attract so much attention means that I thought I had better update it and support it with some hard facts.

Here are the latest gun death figures for 2001, which are the latest available, as published by the CDC (Centre for Disease Control and Prevention, the US government agency that monitors these things.) Rate column is deaths per 100,000 of population.

http://thegreenman.net.au/mt/archives/000473.html

 

[Abaddon]

3 dead and 6 injured people later the backup arrives on the scene and asks if the man can disarm.

That is flawed in too many ways.


Oh, and Abbadon- 5 years is a fairly long time. I do believe that the facts have changed of the course of 5 years.

of course people are cleared from the area... there are very little events within the UK of "man gunman on the loose" one or two a decade, compared to seeming "regualr" within the USA.

show me data showing the deaths have decreased then.

 

[Tycoon101]

Abbadon, your Liberal propoganda will not phase me, is it a reliable source? It doesn't sound real. Can you cross-reference that report with others by a CREDIBLE source? I'm asking YOU to show me real-life facts that are not from 5 years ago!

 

[Abaddon]

"The level of gun ownership world-wide is directly related to murder and suicide rates and specifically to the level of death by gunfire."

International Correlation between gun ownership and rates of homicide and suicide.' Professor Martin Killias, May 1993.

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

 

[.Shane.]

Pyrite, is that in response to me? If so, you haven't disproved me. Only one of your "facts" is pre-Civil War... and that "fact" is in error. The Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 were repealed shortly after Jefferson came to the presidency. Sorry, but the wikipedia is not always right.

A lot of the other stuff is flawed (and/or poorly written/organized)... the Act referred to in 1917 (under Wilson), was a wartime measure and repealed shortly thereafter. The income tax comment is laughable. There is a specific amendment that was passed granting the govt. the right to tax incomes.

Please, could you give the proper link so I can fix that ridiculously flawed wiki page if I have time.