Why I support Affirmitive Action, and why you should too..

[aelf]

Its similar to why liberals usually fail to identify the motivation for their taxation policy to be greed

This is a joke, isn't it? And cutting corporate taxes doesn't serve a certain segment of the society's greed

But this isn't the right thread for it. Suffice to say that this comment is as asinine as the arguments you tend to put forward. You should pretty much be on everyone's ignore list.

 

[El_Machinae]

Your racist, and if your not then you just don't know you are :crazy:

Every here of a self perpetuating fallacy?

Who's more racist: the person who discriminates due to skin colour and admits it and recognizes when it happens, or the person who discriminates but denies it to themselves?

I don't know.

But I do know that almost everyone discriminates (unconsciously) due to skin colour. It's not like we can easily turn it off. We certainly can't combat it by denying it.

But, answer me this, when's the last time you wondered if a chinese fellow was a suicide bomber, even as a glancing thought?

 

[Zarn]

Good for you. If it was an ideal society, we could all do the same. However, some schools look for certain extraneous factors and in order to take advantage of that, some people decide to. I would too if I had the chance with the competitiveness of college admissions today.

It still does not make it right.

 

[Patroklos]

Who's more racist: the person who discriminates due to skin colour and admits it and recognizes when it happens, or the person who discriminates but denies it to themselves?

The first. But since I don't discriminate based on race period, your hypothetical is meaningless to me.

But, answer me this, when's the last time you wondered if a chinese fellow was a suicide bomber, even as a glancing thought?

Never. But then again I have never thought anyone was a suicide bomber. But apparently you have, so OMFG YOU'RE A RASCIST!!!

But this isn't the right thread for it. Suffice to say that this comment is as asinine as the arguments you tend to put forward. You should pretty much be on everyone's ignore list.

I love you too

Incidently, your inability to accept the base motivation for your liberalism was noted

 

[Red Door]

It still does not make it right.

No, but it's a fact of life. It should push everyone to do better. I know it has for me, since I know I need to do better than the people in my geographical area, a very competitive region.

 

[Zarn]

No, but it's a fact of life. It should push everyone to do better. I know it has for me, since I know I need to do better than the people in my geographical area, a very competitive region.

It doesn't push many to do better. Heck, I can see it discouraging a lot of people, like the qualified who don't get in to a school or get a job.

 

[Red Door]

It doesn't push many to do better. Heck, I can see it discouraging a lot of people, like the qualified who don't get in to a school or get a job.

Then those people have no motivation or drive.

 

[aelf]

Incidently, your inability to accept the base motivation for your liberalism was noted

Whatever, greedy capitalist lackey.

 

[Patroklos]

Then those people have no motivation or drive.

Oh, the sweet irony...

 

[El_Machinae]

The first. But since I don't discriminate based on race period, your hypothetical is meaningless to me.

Yes you do. Almost everyone does. We almost can't help it. You're lying to yourself. You've had implicit racial associations formed, just like everyone else.

Why do you think most marriages are 'within race'?
Why is satisfaction with socialist programs inversely correlated with ethnic diversity?
Why did arab women suffer poorer pregnancy outcomes after 9/11?

Never. But then again I have never thought anyone was a suicide bomber. But apparently you have, so OMFG YOU'RE A RASCIST!!!

Yes, I've caught myself double-checking an arab while boarding a plane. It was shortly after 9/11, sure, but completely irrational & accidental. And I've never double-checked a chinese person. This shows that I'm racist; obviously I am. The best I can do is fight it, because one cannot easily undo cultural programming. At least I recognize the stupidity of racial profiling at airports, in an attempt to overcome instinctive idiocy.

 

[a_propagandist]

Look, the entire premise is skewed. If AA is designed to end racial injustice in the form of economic inequity and so on, then why does the system look at race and not socioeconomic tiering? Let the system take finances and such into account when filtering through the applicants. Suppose, hypothetically, a rich minority kid is raised and given the best opportunities and services in his life while a poor white kid suffers and strives through his gang-ridden school and that in the end, both have equal qualifications. Why should the non-white kid get in? Race is not a determining factor in a person's academic development. Wealth and lack thereof is.

This is coming from a lower middle-class Asian-American. I believe that I read somewhere that, on average, 80% of the time, AA just hurts Asian applicants. So yeah, you can understand my dislike of the system. Hell, I'm not rich. I can't afford tutoring and such. Why should I be judged by my race and not my economic tier?

And yeah, everyone is racist to different degrees.

 

[El_Machinae]

It is all about attitude and culture, and the black community in this day and age has nobody to blame for their current self defeating version but themselves.

Thanks for your insightful edit. Well, now, we've put down the myth that you're not racist, haven't we?

 

[Patroklos]

Thanks for your insightful edit. Well, now, we've put down the myth that you're not racist, haven't we?

How is holding people and self identified communities responsible for their own actions rascist? Recognizing racism is not advocating it.

Your back in your self perpetuating fallacy again.

 

[Elrohir]

I get it! Are we arguing about the idea that white people got spoils off of black people and thus historically 'owe' them something? Because I'm not. Not at all.

I'm talking about how white people have a running historical advantage over black people because for generations (a) white people had the power and (b) are racist enough that black people have an historical disadvantage that's become endemic.

That sounds an awful lot like what you're arguing - if there's a difference, could you clearly state it for me?

Right, but the wrongs haven't been corrected. And serious efforts to correct those wrongs are still being culturally opposed. And racism is still causing damages, because we won't stop.

Then correct those specific wrongs - go after companies that hire less qualified whites over more qualified blacks. But creating a whole system based on giving blacks stuff because they're black is no better. It's just as bad.

Yeah, I think here's the disconnect.
You have wealth that your black peer does not, because your (hardworking and loving) parents have better incomes and better jobs than their black peers do. Why do they have better jobs? Because we're racist.

I am not racist, nor are my parents, not are most of the people around me. If you want to call yourself and your friends and your family racist, then that's your affair - but it's insulting for you to me and mine in such a presumptive way.

See, you've just presented a nice & viable solution. You're young, so one wonders why such a solution hasn't been implemented already. Heck, on the face of it, it looks to be more financially viable (i.e., cost effective) than AA.

How easy would it be for someone to work around this effort, though? If I (as an employer) knew that I'd get stung if I didn't 'call back' people with ethnic names, I'd just make sure to call a few of them each hiring cycle. And that's not even being racist. It's just CYA on my part.

But the racist can weed them out when they don't show up for the interview.

If they don't show up for the interview, then why do they deserve the job? I don't expect to get a job if I won't show up for an interview, why should anyone else? If I were an employer, I wouldn't hire someone too lazy to come to an interview. I wouldn't care if they were white or black; if you don't show up, you don't get a job.

The reason why I don't comment on it is because I already have. I support programs designed to get people out of poverty. I harp on it most opportunities I get. AA is just one facet. There are dozens of things that need to be done.

AA is an unfair and racist system which could be better replaced by a system that actually tries to fix poverty and inequality - instead of punishing white people for daring to be richer than black people. That's effectively what you're doing, and it's stupid. The goal should be to help the poor, regardless of their skin color. AA doesn't do that.

Here's the thing. If you raise every black family to the quality of living that's experienced by whites (i.e., along the same distribution of income) then in a couple generations black people will be poor again. Why? Because they're specifically discriminated against out of racism. And then once the cycles of poverty kick in, it doesn't stop.

But there are poor white people now! I see them every day - poor white folks who have no money and no resources, and your programs don't help them because they have the wrong color skin. It's wrong, plain and simple.

Here's the difference between us: I want to help the poor, those who don't have much. You just want to help poor blacks. I don't think your system is particularly effective even at that, but even if it were, it'd still be unjust because it only focuses on some of the disadvantaged.

You want a more equal society where fewer people live in abject poverty? Then create programs that give opportunities to the poor. Don't create a racist program that only addresses part of the problem, and actually makes the situation worse than if it didn't exist. Racism is never the answer, and supporting racism and the perpetuation of economic inequality in the name of equality is abhorrent. And that's exactly what you're doing.

 

[I'm Cleo!]

It is all about attitude and culture, and the black community in this day and age has nobody to blame for their current self defeating version but themselves.

Thanks for your insightful edit. Well, now, we've put down the myth that you're not racist, haven't we?

This illustrates that there are two issues:

1. The issue of principle, i.e., whether it's appropriate to "treat people differently in order to treat them equally," and

2. The issue of fact, i.e., whether there is racial discrimination to be remedied by Affirmative Action programs.

Cleo

 

[El_Machinae]

How is holding people and self identified communities responsible for their own actions rascist?

Because you're putting ALL of the guilt for their current situation specifically on their shoulders.

I'm not denying that there's a LOT of blame to be spread around. A huge amount is (I agree) to be hoisted on the current black culture. But not all of it.

 

[Patroklos]

Because you're putting ALL of the guilt for their current situation specifically on their shoulders.

It is irrelevant if it is all or most, the fact is they are the masters of their destiny now and they are the only ones who will fix it, one family recognizing reality at a time.

 

[I'm Cleo!]

Here's the difference between us: I want to help the poor, those who don't have much. You just want to help poor blacks. I don't think your system is particularly effective even at that, but even if it were, it'd still be unjust because it only focuses on some of the disadvantaged.

Where I think the real difference lies here is that you don't think there's discrimination in America based on race that's independent of socio-economic status ("SES"). Right? El_Mac thinks that there should be programs to help the poor and that there should be programs to help blacks, because he thinks that there's racial discrimination in America independent of SES. You want something that helps low SES people regardless of race; but to El_Mac (who undoubtedly would support that program, too), that only addresses some of the problem. He sees two types of discrimination at work: (i) on the basis of SES, and (ii) on the basis of race. So you see how he could think your solution insufficient, right? And it's because, I submit, you don't think there's independent racial discrimination in America.

Since you acknowledge that there's discrimination on the basis of SES in America, and you would support programs to provide opportunity to those people, I have a question: if it were proven that there wasindependent racial discrimination in the United States, would you support something like Affirmative Action? If not, what legal measures could be taken to address racial discrimination that don't take race into account?

Cleo

 

[Elrohir]

Where I think the real difference lies here is that you don't think there's discrimination in America based on race that's independent of socio-economic status ("SES"). Right? El_Mac thinks that there should be programs to help the poor and that there should be programs to help blacks, because he thinks that there's racial discrimination in America independent of SES. You want something that helps low SES people regardless of race; but to El_Mac (who undoubtedly would support that program, too), that only addresses some of the problem. He sees two types of discrimination at work: (i) on the basis of SES, and (ii) on the basis of race. So you see how he could think your solution insufficient, right? And it's because, I submit, you don't think there's independent racial discrimination in America.

Since you acknowledge that there's discrimination on the basis of SES in America, and you would support programs to provide opportunity to those people, I have a question: if it were proven that there wasindependent racial discrimination in the United States, would you support something like Affirmative Action? If not, what legal measures could be taken to address racial discrimination that don't take race into account?

Cleo

Uhh....no. I'm quite sure that there's racism in the US that's based entirely on skin color or ethnicity, and is independent of SES. Whatever your race is, I'm sure there's someone somewhere you thinks you're lazy, evil, ignorant or inferior because of it. I'm not denying that there are racist Americans. What I'm denying is that society as a whole is racist, and that instituting racist programs will counteract the effects of racist individuals to any appreciable degree.

 

[a_propagandist]

http://media.www.browndailyherald.com/media/storage/paper472/news/2008/02/13/HigherEd/Without.Affirmative.Action.Asian.Admission.Rates.Rise-3206465.shtml

Look, it can be seen that the system hurts Asians, no? Can't it be argued that another minority has been disadvantaged? It's not as if we haven't suffered and don't continue to suffer from racism.