Why I support Affirmitive Action, and why you should too..

[Red Door]

By definition, if he had to get in using Affimative Action he most certainly did not. AA isn't for making sure applicants of a group with superior qualifications get in, it is for making sure people of a group with inferior qualifications get in.

I didn't know kids with 2.0's were getting into Harvard based on race or geographical location. You're being silly. Affirmative Action doesn't reward people who don't work hard.

 

[Patroklos]

I didn't know kids with 2.0's were getting into Harvard based on race or geographical location. You're being silly. Affirmative Action doesn't reward people who don't work hard.

Who said didn't work hard? Oh, you alone did. It has to do with who worked harder, and the only objective way to do that is the academic qualifications earned. Skin color is not a qualification, racist.

 

[Red Door]

Who said didn't work hard? Oh, you alone did. It has to do with who worked harder, and the only objective way to do that is the academic qualifications earned. Skin color is not a qualification, racist.

Affirmative Action isn't solely based on race, for a second time. Besides that, academic qualifications aren't standardized between schools, so it is nearly impossible to compare two kids from different backgrounds. On top of that, no kid deserves to go to X school because he worked harder than another student. A school decides who it wants based on their own process and thought, you can't say a harder working student "deserves" a spot at all because no one "deserves" a spot over another to a college.

 

[Aegis]

Stupid typical white people.

Thank you, Barack Obama.

 

[Trajan12]

By definition, if he had to get in using Affimative Action he most certainly did not. AA isn't for making sure applicants of a group with superior qualifications get in, it is for making sure people of a group with inferior qualifications get in.

Umm, not really.

AA helps people with superior qualifications get into schools and get jobs as well. Not everyone who receives AA is automatically less qualified.

 

[Patroklos]

On top of that, no kid deserves to go to X school because he worked harder than another student.

Yes, apparently according to you you get to go to X school because of your skin color, rascist.

A school decides who it wants based on their own process and thought, you can't say a harder working student "deserves" a spot at all because no one "deserves" a spot over another to a college.

According to our laws, it is against the law to decide who gets to go to your school based on anything other than academic qualifications (or if it is a public school, within the soverignty of that state/city). Oh yeah, unless you have the AA silver spoon in your mouth.

AA helps people with superior qualifications get into schools and get jobs as well. Not everyone who receives AA is automatically less qualified.

Thats as asinine as claiming AA isn't about race. Please stop pretending the rare example constitutes the rule.

 

[Trajan12]

. Please stop pretending the rare example constitutes the rule.

So, in other words, you're saying that people who receive Affirmative Action are inferior, and if they weren't inferior, they wouldn't need it?

 

[Red Door]

Yes, apparently according to you you get to go to X school because of your skin color, rascist.

No, I never said that. Stop making up stuff.

According to our laws, it is against the law to decide who gets to go to your school based on anything other than academic qualifications (or if it is a public school, within the soverignty of that state/city). Oh yeah, unless you have the AA silver spoon in your mouth.

And again, academic qualifications aren't standardized between schools and systems. A school decides what students it wants in, but no student deserves to go to a school because of any quantity or quality of them.

 

[Patroklos]

No, I never said that. Stop making up stuff.

You sure did. You actively support the use of skin color as a qualifer all its own, racist.

If you don't like the way that sounds, stop supporting rascisim.

And again, academic qualifications aren't standardized between schools and systems.

Wrong, ACTs and SATs are standardizes, as are entry into academic honors societies.

A school decides what students it wants in, but no student deserves to go to a school because of any quantity or quality of them.

Honestly? Seriously? Are you sure you want this to be your position?

 

[I'm Cleo!]

Is finishing all your sentence with ", racist." an inside joke I've missed?

Cleo

 

[Patroklos]

So, in other words, you're saying that people who receive Affirmative Action are inferior, and if they weren't inferior, they wouldn't need it?

Not as clever as you think I specifically said their academic qualifications are inferior, not their person, to avoid the inevitable redirect.

AA was never intended to make sure equivalent applicants got a fair shake, and this is especially obvious when you look at the time period it was enacted and quota numbers given. It has always been intended to artificially elevate academically inferior applicants (in academia) so they could be competitive where they had no buisness being competative (no matter what form of AA it is).

The sad thing here is the various would be beneficiaries here have pretty much sunk the white guilt crowd. I am not even sure why AA proponents are still posting in the face of that damning opposition.

Is finishing all your sentence with ", racist." an inside joke I've missed?

Sometimes it is hard to have the reality of your motivation stripped bare and placed at your feet. Actually saying you are okay with skin color being a qualtifier for anything is the definition of rascism. Its similar to why liberals usually fail to identify the motivation for their taxation policy to be greed

 

[Trajan12]

Not as clever as you think I specifically said their academic qualifications are inferior, not their person, to avoid the inevitable redirect.

AA was never intended to make sure equivalent applicants got a fair shake, and this is especially obvious when you look at the time period it was enacted and quata numbers given. It has always been intended to artificially elevate academically inferior applicants (in academia) so they could be competitive where they had no buisness being competative (no matter what form of AA it is).

The sad thing here is the various would be beneficiaries here have pretty much sunk the white guilt crowd. I am not even sure why AA proponents are still posting in the face of that damning opposition.



Sometimes it is hard to have the reality of your motivation stripped bare and placed at your feed. Its similar to why liberals usually fail to identify the motivation for their taxation policy to be greed

Well, I'm not a proponent of AA. Nor am I or either of my parents beneficiaries, and I think I can get a good enough scholarship and a part time job.

That said, if you look at a number of studies conducted, you can see that when race is factored in, employers usually opt to decide based on that and not qualifications. Occupation AA makes sure that companies do no exclude based on race. It may also help unqualified people get jobs they shouldn't have, but that doesn't change the fact that it helps qualified people who would otherwise be denied jobs. How effective that is or whether or it at all isn't a point I can argue, but I know that it does do that.

So it's hard to deny that if you stripped AA and left the job market as it is, that qualified minorities would get equal or even near equal consideration for jobs. So if you're going to strip AA, you have to do something to make sure employers don't make this so.

 

[I'm Cleo!]

Actually saying you are okay with skin color being a qualtifier for anything is the definition of rascism.

Well, actually it's not.* But who has ever been particularly concerned with the meaning of words anyway? "Hypocrite," anyone?

Cleo

*Unless "rascism" is a joke with which I'm not familiar, like how some people were throwing around "rasist" a while back.

 

[Red Door]

You sure did. You actively support the use of skin color as a qualifer all its own, racist.

If you don't like the way that sounds, stop supporting rascisim.

No, I don't. I support colleges using whatever admission standards they want. And would you stop saying racist. It's not funny, it's plain annoying. It shows you have no argument and instead need to resort to trolling.

Wrong, ACTs and SATs are standardizes, as are entry into academic honors societies.

And not every school uses those...

Honestly? Seriously? Are you sure you want this to be your position?

It's hell of a lot better of a position than closing my ears and crying AA is racism because a school decided to let a minority in over me. If you think someone deserves to go to school because of anything about them, you are being a crybaby. No one deserves a spot anywhere.

 

[Patroklos]

So it's hard to deny that if you stripped AA and left the job market as it is, that qualified minorities would get equal or even near equal consideration for jobs. So if you're going to strip AA, you have to do something to make sure employers don't make this so.

The same thing we do to make sure they pay their taxes and follow safety regulations. Or in other words use common sense and not rascism.

 

[Zarn]

It's hell of a lot better of a position than closing my ears and crying AA is racism because a school decided to let a minority in over me. If you think someone deserves to go to school because of anything about them, you are being a crybaby. No one deserves a spot anywhere.

No one got a spot over me. I opted out of being labeled Hispanic (despite the fact I am one) in order to do things on my own. Minorities do not need your help. Minorities are not clueless, and we can handle ourselves.

I have experienced racism, but it does not prevent me from getting any job.

 

[Patroklos]

No, I don't. I support colleges using whatever admission standards they want. And would you stop saying racist. It's not funny, it's plain annoying. It shows you have no argument and instead need to resort to trolling.

Anything they want, eh? So why do we have AA again?

And you are a rascist as long as you think colleges can use race as a admission qualifier. If you think it is annoying that says more about you than it does about me.

And not every school uses those...

Yeah, they do.

It's hell of a lot better of a position than closing my ears and crying AA is racism because a school decided to let a minority in over me.

Who said anything about minority? We were most decidedly talking about schools letting in less academically qualified students over more academically qualified students whatever their excuse. Stop thinking in terms of race, rascist.

If you think someone deserves to go to school because of anything about them, you are being a crybaby. No one deserves a spot anywhere.

I am curious if you realize the absurdity of your statement. You undertand that no matter what reason a school lets a student in, whether it be my qualification based way or your rascist way, they are at that very moment deciding someone "deserves it." Because admission standards are public, it is entirely to describe on candidate as more deserving than the other. The only question is whether you think skin color is an appropriate qualifier, which rascists like you do in fact beleive.

 

[El_Machinae]

If my family, on either side, was ever rich, then it was at least two generations ago, and there's no sign of it anymore.

I get it! Are we arguing about the idea that white people got spoils off of black people and thus historically 'owe' them something? Because I'm not. Not at all.

I'm talking about how white people have a running historical advantage over black people because for generations (a) white people had the power and (b) are racist enough that black people have an historical disadvantage that's become endemic.

Nah, they were. But they didn't take advantage of it. And they were born and raised into a culture already starting to correct those wrongs. (I'm younger than you, remember, so my parents are much younger than yours )

Right, but the wrongs haven't been corrected. And serious efforts to correct those wrongs are still being culturally opposed. And racism is still causing damages, because we won't stop.

I've directly benefited from their hard work, yes. I'm not denying that. What I'm denying is that their hard work in any way disadvantaged blacks. If they had made their living stealing from the poor, then maybe you'd have a point. But simply because they had enough, doesn't mean they stole from those who didn't.

Yeah, I think here's the disconnect.
You have wealth that your black peer does not, because your (hardworking and loving) parents have better incomes and better jobs than their black peers do. Why do they have better jobs? Because we're racist.

Now, if the problem was only one generation old, it wouldn't really be much of a problem. Why? Because your parents (as kids) had a hugeadvantage over their black peers, because their parents automatically got better jobs (and more favourable laws, in fact) than their black peers.

Every generation, people forward wealth to their children. Firstly through improved upbringings and secondly through wealth transfer (from help with the first house to an inheritance). For generations, black people have been given a selective disadvantage. IF a black person was JUST as educated and hardworking as a white man, he was poorer. And then his kids were automatically disadvantaged too.

Then up the Justice Department's budget, and have an entire department that does nothing but send phony (and excellent) resumes to corporations, and then bust them when they favor less qualified white applicants.

See, you've just presented a nice & viable solution. You're young, so one wonders why such a solution hasn't been implemented already. Heck, on the face of it, it looks to be more financially viable (i.e., cost effective) than AA.

How easy would it be for someone to work around this effort, though? If I (as an employer) knew that I'd get stung if I didn't 'call back' people with ethnic names, I'd just make sure to call a few of them each hiring cycle. And that's not even being racist. It's just CYA on my part.

But the racist can weed them out when they don't show up for the interview.

Get rid of it. Have a system that focuses on needs, not on race. That way the blacks that need help get it, and the whites that need help get it too. And the ones that don't need help - whites, black, Asian, Hispanic, whatever - don't. I might be more inclined to listen to your argument, if there wasn't an obviously better way. I'm just confused as to why you can't see that. (And refuse to even seriously comment on it)

The reason why I don't comment on it is because I already have. I support programs designed to get people out of poverty. I harp on it most opportunities I get. AA is just one facet. There are dozens of things that need to be done.

Here's the thing. If you raise every black family to the quality of living that's experienced by whites (i.e., along the same distribution of income) then in a couple generations black people will be poor again. Why? Because they're specifically discriminated against out of racism. And then once the cycles of poverty kick in, it doesn't stop.

 

[Patroklos]

Because we're racist.

You're racist, and if your not then you just don't know you are



Every hear of a self perpetuating fallacy?

Here's the thing. If you raise every black family to the quality of living that's experienced by whites (i.e., along the same distribution of income) then in a couple generations black people will be poor again. Why? Because they're specifically discriminated against out of racism. And then once the cycles of poverty kick in, it doesn't stop.

God? Is that you? Listen, you can believe that all you want, but unfortuenetly reality disagrees with you. Black families that reach the middle class don't slide right back down. It is all about attitude and culture, and the black community in this day and age has nobody to blame for their current self defeating version but themselves.

The one thing Obama seems to have vaguely right :b:

 

[Red Door]

Anything they want, eh? So why do we have AA again?

Schools use AA to let kids they think are disadvantaged, whether it be their race, geographical location, or whatever have a chance at higher institution.

And you are a rascist as long as you think colleges can use race as a admission qualifier. If you think it is annoying that says more about you than it does about me.

This statement is so wrong it's funny.

Yeah, they do.

No, not really. Some schools don't require a submitted SAT or ACT score. Some don't want them. I'll forgive your ignorance, you haven't applied to college in a long time.

Who said anything about minority? We were most decidedly talking about schools letting in less academically qualified students over more academically qualified students whatever their excuse. Stop thinking in terms of race, rascist.

Okay, your troll game is getting old. First off, it's "racist." Second off,, this is done. I give up on responding to trolls. You're obviously too narrow-viewed to continue this.

I am curious if you realize the absurdity of your statement. You undertand that no matter what reason a school lets a student in, whether it be my qualification based way or your rascist way, they are at that very moment deciding someone "deserves it." Because admission standards are public, it is entirely to describe on candidate as more deserving than the other. The only question is whether you think skin color is an appropriate qualifier, which rascists like you do in fact beleive.

No, I don't. Please, just stop for your own sake. You're only making yourself look like a fool by making up lies, arguments, and statements by me. It's pathetic. The people that complain about deserving it are people who didn't get into a school, which decided they didn't. It's a simple concept, for most people.

No one got a spot over me. I opted out of being labeled Hispanic (despite the fact I am one) in order to do things on my own. Minorities do not need your help. Minorities are not clueless, and we can handle ourselves.

I have experienced racism, but it does not prevent me from getting any job.

Good for you. If it was an ideal society, we could all do the same. However, some schools look for certain extraneous factors and in order to take advantage of that, some people decide to. I would too if I had the chance with the competitiveness of college admissions today.