Why is most of the Islamic world so backwards?

Halycon,

Excellent Rebuttal.

Further Winner, it is absurd that you say that Islamic culture is at fault for the lack of progress and modern lifestyle and living standards in Islamic countries, when there striking examples around the gulf, particularly the Emirates and Iran, of modern technology, living standards, and rule of law.
 
...even if some of them are still creepy human rights abusers like Singapore.
 
Short answer: The Mongols.

Long answer: The Mongols, the Ottomans, the French, the British and the United States of America. I'll explain.
I don't think a few paragraphs would be sufficient of such lengthy generalizations.

Once upon a time, the Islamic world was far ahead of everyone else.
Far ahead of what?

The Islamic world was pretty awesome back then Then the Mongols killed almost everyone. Seriously, they killed over 95% of the people in what is now Iran. They razed Baghdad, then the greatest centre of learning and culture in the world.
You're quite an exaggerator.


They destroyed irrigation systems which fed millions and took thousands of years to build.
It takes thousands of years to build irrigation systems? Odd?

They murdered everyone, and then started killing each other. Civilisation does not survive that without a few wounds.
Killed everyone? Are you going to still back up those hasty generalizations? Or is this a fun thing that you do for a living, go to internet forums and talk endlessly about things without checking up facts and taking the time to do a little research?

They haven't recovered, yet. The Mongols ruled for centuries, and did no good at all. They were replaced in the Middle East by the Ottomans, who were just as bad. The Ottomans lasted until 1918, when the Europeans took over, did a terrible job, and then left. Less than a lifetime ago.

Persia on the other hand was doing alright once they started existing again in the 16th Century, although they'd have done a great deal better without Britain/France/Russia invading. Their current problems mostly stem from pre-WWII Imperial British muckery, followed by post WWII US muckery. Each sought to ruin the region's government in order to control Persian oil wells, cliché as that has become. The Western-installed Pahlavi dynasty Shahs were spectacularly rubbish, and the inevitable revolution was hijacked by crazy fundamentalists. Result: crazy people in charge. That was only forty years ago - they'll recover, eventually. Provided the US stays far, far, far away, rather than ruining everything again.

It has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, just as Europe being a craphole in the seventh century had nothing to do with Christianity. In an odd sort of way, Islam was a uniting factor in the region: since faith was considered more important than nationality, the various Caliphates had really pretty multiethnic government systems. A mostly Turkic military, a largely Persian government and civil service, a largely Arabic priesthood, and so on. Saladin himself was a Kurdish king of Arabic Egypt, and that was fine.


Consider this equally dodgy generalisation: South America is mostly crap, too, by the same measure. They alternate between corrupt semi-anarchy and corrupt megalomaniacal dictatorships. South America is also very Christian. Therefore, South American misery is entirely due to Christianity.

Sure, powerful orthodox religious institutions have a lovely way of perpetuating miserable situations, but they don't often cause them. Prosperous civilisations mostly tolerate or ignore the doomsayers and the firestarters, rather than follow them.

I'd probably drop some blame for the Islamic World's misery on Al-Ghazali, too - a theologian who basically rejected rational thought (too Pagan Greek) in favour of the assumption of divine will in all things (nice and pious). Essentially the father of Muslim Fundamentalism. He got far more say than he deserved, the bastard.]

Long story short: It wasn't until the Mongols, and it wouldn't still be if certain Empires could have kept their bloody hands out of it. It'll be okay in the future, if certain other nations could do the same.

Another future historian? Wow! Talk about great speed in this post!!!
 
Um. I didn't say that. I'm just saying Dubai is a lot like Singapore in many ways.
 
Wasn't the islamic world pretty advanced at one time. I think they had the same religion back then. So, it probably isn't due to the flavour of the religion.

edit: Excellent post Halcyon.

Wrong argument.

At one point, their religion was equally oppressive, aggressive and intolerant as Christianity, which means nobody had an advantage religion-wise. Muslims had initially better access to the knowledge of the older civilizations (Rome, Persia, Egypt etc.), while Europe was isolated from its source and its internal religious dogma prevented it from acquiring it. The little knowledge the Europeans had was kept hidden in monasteries.

It's symptomatic that once Europeans got rid of the stiff religious control (after the Church had became less powerfull) and opened new trade routes, they begun to quickly catch up with the Muslims and eventually outcompeted them. Reformation and Enlightement finished the Church as major player in European politics, and since then the European power skyrocketed.

Muslims never really reformed their religion, it is still the same Islam they believed in when Muhammad first raised sword in the name of Allah.

In short, a religion which was quite competitive in the Middle Ages (and Islam was initially very competitive) has gradually become less competitive. Nowadays it is not competitive at all.
 
Wrong argument.

At one point, their religion was equally oppressive, aggressive and intolerant as Christianity, which means nobody had an advantage religion-wise. Muslims had initially better access to the knowledge of the older civilizations (Rome, Persia, Egypt etc.), while Europe was isolated from its source and its internal religious dogma prevented it from acquiring it. The little knowledge the Europeans had was kept hidden in monasteries.

It's symptomatic that once Europeans got rid of the stiff religious control (after the Church had became less powerfull) and opened new trade routes, they begun to quickly catch up with the Muslims and eventually outcompeted them. Reformation and Enlightement finished the Church as major player in European politics, and since then the European power skyrocketed.

Muslims never really reformed their religion, it is still the same Islam they believed in when Muhammad first raised sword in the name of Allah.

In short, a religion which was quite competitive in the Middle Ages (and Islam was initially very competitive) has gradually become less competitive. Nowadays it is not competitive at all.

christianity didnt just reform itself either, it was forced to at the dawn of the industrial revolution. the problem isnt a backwards culture, the problem is an economic state that still allows this culture to exist.
 
Um. I didn't say that. I'm just saying Dubai is a lot like Singapore in many ways.
Okay, I understand, Dubai is very like Singapore in many ways, including to treating its foreign workers like s**t, so just being a muslim doesn't qualify a country for being bad.

I always thought that Turkey is an advance country, and it is Muslim too! doesn't that prove the hypothesis that Islam is a prime requisite for dis-modernisation? Malaysia is kind of modern as well and it is Islamic.
 
Wrong argument.

At one point, their religion was equally oppressive, aggressive and intolerant as Christianity, which means nobody had an advantage religion-wise. Muslims had initially better access to the knowledge of the older civilizations (Rome, Persia, Egypt etc.), while Europe was isolated from its source and its internal religious dogma prevented it from acquiring it. The little knowledge the Europeans had was kept hidden in monasteries.

It's symptomatic that once Europeans got rid of the stiff religious control (after the Church had became less powerfull) and opened new trade routes, they begun to quickly catch up with the Muslims and eventually outcompeted them. Reformation and Enlightement finished the Church as major player in European politics, and since then the European power skyrocketed.

Muslims never really reformed their religion, it is still the same Islam they believed in when Muhammad first raised sword in the name of Allah.

In short, a religion which was quite competitive in the Middle Ages (and Islam was initially very competitive) has gradually become less competitive. Nowadays it is not competitive at all.
I think we do agree after all. Consider the religious roles being reversed.

I meant to say that Islam isn't directly the cause, but the way religion in general is handled over there.
christianity didnt just reform itself either, it was forced to at the dawn of the industrial revolution. the problem isnt a backwards culture, the problem is an economic state that still allows this culture to exist.
Exacly.

Said it better than I could :)
 
Short answer: The Mongols.

Long answer: The Mongols, the Ottomans, the French, the British and the United States of America. I'll explain.

Ah, the usual "it's not their fault, the others conspired against them" argument. Let's see...

Once upon a time, the Islamic world was far ahead of everyone else. The Islamic world was pretty awesome back then

As I explained in my previous post, it was initially more advanced because the Muslims had better access to the products of higher civilizations of Rome (Byzantines), Persia (Sassanids), India and many others.

It's really not fair or acceptable to compare it with Europe, which was (during the Dark Ages) recovering from the chaos of countless barbarian invasions (Germanics, Slavs, Avars, Vikings, Magyars the list goes on). It is a fact that many of the knowledge produced by the Islamic world in this period was in fact derived from the work of others, mainly the Persians and Romans.

Then the Mongols killed almost everyone. Seriously, they killed over 95% of the people in what is now Iran. They razed Baghdad, then the greatest centre of learning and culture in the world. They destroyed irrigation systems which fed millions and took thousands of years to build. They murdered everyone, and then started killing each other. Civilisation does not survive that without a few wounds.

Mongol invasions were bad, that is true, but they

a) did not destroy the whole muslim world
b) 95%? that's an overestimation
c) Europe suffered some pretty bad catastrophies too: Black Plague wiped out at least 1/3 of Europe's population, perhaps even more.
d) most imporant point: other civilizations have been devastated by the Mongols too, but they recovered: China gradually assimilated them and then become more powerful than ever before.

They haven't recovered, yet. The Mongols ruled for centuries, and did no good at all. They were replaced in the Middle East by the Ottomans, who were just as bad. The Ottomans lasted until 1918, when the Europeans took over, did a terrible job, and then left. Less than a lifetime ago.

That's not an explanation. Again, China recovered, Russia recovered, Hapsburgs recovered.

FYI, Mameluks were the first one who defeated the Mongols, they were the most powerful Muslim civilization in that time. You can't say that they succumbed to MUSLIM Ottomans because they were weakened by the Mongols.

Ottoman Empire was a Muslim country and it had the opportunity to develop, instead it hindered technological progress. Again, why? I say it happened because of their Islamic culture, which they adopted.

Persia on the other hand was doing alright once they started existing again in the 16th Century, although they'd have done a great deal better without Britain/France/Russia invading. Their current problems mostly stem from pre-WWII Imperial British muckery, followed by post WWII US muckery. Each sought to ruin the region's government in order to control Persian oil wells, cliché as that has become. The Western-installed Pahlavi dynasty Shahs were spectacularly rubbish, and the inevitable revolution was hijacked by crazy fundamentalists. Result: crazy people in charge. That was only forty years ago - they'll recover, eventually. Provided the US stays far, far, far away, rather than ruining everything again.

Again, you are trying to lay blame on external factors without thinking about the internal factors - why were the Muslims lagging behind and incapable of resisting the Europeans? You know my answer to that.

It has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, just as Europe being a craphole in the seventh century had nothing to do with Christianity.

Actually, it had a lot to do with Christianity. Islam is even more intrusive religion than Christianity, and it influenced the culture much more. You can't say that islam had nothing to do with that, it would be as stupid as to say that Christianity had nothing to do with Crusades :crazyeye:

In an odd sort of way, Islam was a uniting factor in the region: since faith was considered more important than nationality, the various Caliphates had really pretty multiethnic government systems. A mostly Turkic military, a largely Persian government and civil service, a largely Arabic priesthood, and so on. Saladin himself was a Kurdish king of Arabic Egypt, and that was fine.


Consider this equally dodgy generalisation: South America is mostly crap, too, by the same measure. They alternate between corrupt semi-anarchy and corrupt megalomaniacal dictatorships. South America is also very Christian. Therefore, South American misery is entirely due to Christianity.

A completely absurd analogy, which is not really worth a comment.

Sure, powerful orthodox religious institutions have a lovely way of perpetuating miserable situations, but they don't often cause them. Prosperous civilisations mostly tolerate or ignore the doomsayers and the firestarters, rather than follow them.

[I'd probably drop some blame for the Islamic World's misery on Al-Ghazali, too - a theologian who basically rejected rational thought (too Pagan Greek) in favour of the assumption of divine will in all things (nice and pious). Essentially the father of Muslim Fundamentalism. He got far more say than he deserved, the bastard.]

Clearly, it's not just him. Islam as a whole is at odds with modernity, with all the ideologies which are essential for modernization.


Long story short: It wasn't until the Mongols, and it wouldn't still be if certain Empires could have kept their bloody hands out of it. It'll be okay in the future, if certain other nations could do the same.[/QUOTE]
 
christianity didnt just reform itself either, it was forced to at the dawn of the industrial revolution. the problem isnt a backwards culture, the problem is an economic state that still allows this culture to exist.

It's the other way round.

You need to have relaxed culture to start economic growth.

European economic growth begun in the most liberal and free-thinking areas. Once the process started, it became self-strengthening.

Muslims profited from the trade with Asia much more than Europeans, until the Portugese found another way to India. They had plenty of opportunities to start their own Renaissance.

I think we do agree after all. Consider the religious roles being reversed.

I meant to say that Islam isn't directly the cause, but the way religion in general is handled over there.

It's Islam. For example, Islam prohibits banking, because interest is not allowed. This is of course a major obstance, because banking is necessary if you want to build a modern economy.

This is just one instance of Islam hindreing the progress. Their hostile attitude to religious tolerance, liberal thinking, secularism, emancipation etc. are other reasons why they failed to modernize.
 
Halycon,

Excellent Rebuttal.

Further Winner, it is absurd that you say that Islamic culture is at fault for the lack of progress and modern lifestyle and living standards in Islamic countries, when there striking examples around the gulf, particularly the Emirates and Iran, of modern technology, living standards, and rule of law.

As I said in the opening post:

OIL. Do you think that countries like Saudi Arabia, Bahrain or UAE would be so rich if it wasn't for oil? Really, I want to know you opinion.
 
Short answer: The Mongols.

Long answer: The Mongols, the Ottomans, the French, the British and the United States of America.

And likely soon to be the Chinese.
 
It's the other way round.

there's your mistake, and that's why you see a problem in cultures...

Muslims profited from the trade with Asia much more than Europeans, until the Portugese found another way to India. They had plenty of opportunities to start their own Renaissance.

a feudalist system profiting from trade is not a base for liberalism to emerge. industrialisation and advent of capitalism is.
 
Because the Islamic world is located in deserty crapholes?

Yes!

And a cultural rejection of the modern scientific method (trying to cram everything into the Koran).
A refusal to implement a more reasonable way of giving to charity (a portion of your income) or a reasonable way of investing (by allowing money to be borrowed for profit).
Massive intervention when it comes to exploiting their natural resources.
And ... that they live in a deserty craphole
 
As I said in the opening post:

OIL. Do you think that countries like Saudi Arabia, Bahrain or UAE would be so rich if it wasn't for oil? Really, I want to know you opinion.

Replace oil with what? Desert? Similiar topography as Europe? Sorry man, but I think that to do a counterfactual here would require alot of study and analysis and brains smarters than ours.

I do think oil is a hinderance to their social development today, yes, as is any government whose revenue stream comes from the ground, and not its people.
 
Mongol invasions were bad, that is true, but they

a) did not destroy the whole muslim world
b) 95%? that's an overestimation
c) Europe suffered some pretty bad catastrophies too: Black Plague wiped out at least 1/3 of Europe's population, perhaps even more.
d) most imporant point: other civilizations have been devastated by the Mongols too, but they recovered: China gradually assimilated them and then become more powerful than ever before.

The middle east and China suffered greater population loss from the black death than europe did :lol:, with estimates up to 2/3rds.

The point about the mongols is their destruction of the irrgation systems - in Europe or China after a marauding army you just shrug and wait for next years rains. In the middle east were you are trying to rebuild an irrgation system that took a decade to build and you only have a years worth of stored food on hand your population is going to crash, often falling to a point beyond which its easy to rebuild from.

That's not an explanation. Again, China recovered, Russia recovered, Hapsburgs recovered.

As above, they had the advantage of not being desert crapholes.

FYI, Mameluks were the first one who defeated the Mongols, they were the most powerful Muslim civilization in that time. You can't say that they succumbed to MUSLIM Ottomans because they were weakened by the Mongols.

1) They beat a small mongol army operating at considerable distance from their sources of fodder. 2) You can win and still be weakened for the next attack. 3) Although both were muslim, the turkish takeover represented a steppe nomad despotism being imposed that was considerably less interested in economic development than the urbanised and commerical despotism that preceeded the mongols.
 
Okay, I understand, Dubai is very like Singapore in many ways, including to treating its foreign workers like s**t, so just being a muslim doesn't qualify a country for being bad.

I always thought that Turkey is an advance country, and it is Muslim too! doesn't that prove the hypothesis that Islam is a prime requisite for dis-modernisation? Malaysia is kind of modern as well and it is Islamic.

turkey is different from most of the muslim world, the status of religion in turkey is closer to that of the western world than the rest of the muslim world, the people might be muslim but the government and legal system is mostly secular. the problem with islamic countries isnt islam its the fact that religion still has so much power over people
 
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