Why Islam Can't Reform

[luiz]

Actually, only idiots (which covers anti-SJW warriors almost entirely) think that race is prima facie a special category and that any thesis about race is wrong simply because it's about race. Their thinking is not sophisticated enough to realise that the fundamental problem is not exclusive to race. They can maybe get as far as the concept of race being a social construct and therefore any attempt at a blanket analysis is going to come up with fiction. But that begs the question: If race is a social construct, religion is not?

But the most salient criticism of a blanket analysis of a major religion is that it's bound to represent the entire religion monolithically from one particular angle. And the result would be as silly as saying things like "Black people are less intelligent." The picture painted would be manifestly inaccurate as it purports to be complete but is actually incomplete. Even if your blanket analysis covers 80℅ of the religion, it's still problematic to attribute your observations to something fundamental to the faith, since obviously that doesn't apply to a significant segment of the faithful. And the evidence seems to bear this out too: The OP's comments on liberal Muslims clearly show that his exposure to more liberal strands of Islam is limited.

Race is a social construct, but it's not an ideology, it's not a choice. Nobody chooses to be classified as white or black by society; being Muslim is a choice just like being a Marxist. Being black or white, while mostly meaningless from a genetic POV, is an innate characteristic of people over which they have no power. Failing to realize this key difference is beyond ridiculous.

Of course there are huge differences within Islam, but they all follow a Prophet who was also a warlord and conqueror. They all follow a Prophet who personally ordered massacres, and even killed people himself. That is a sharp contrast to Jesus, who is followed by Christians of all varieties, and it matters. This is obvious I should not have to point out, but everything must be pointed out to SJWs who live in their parallel universe. This has nothing to do with being black or white. There is no major unifying characteristic of those groups other than skin tone (which is quite varied too).

 

[timtofly]

Thanks for proving my point. In Christianity the king has a legitimate theological case for temporal power, free from religious authorities. He has a theological case to challenge the pope, and keep him away from temporal matters. And the kings did just that, many centuries ago.

In Islam there is no theological case to keep the religious authorities away from temporal matters, because (repeating for the 100th time) Mohammed was both Prophet and Caesar. It doesn't matter that you SJWs refuse to look at this point because it goes against your childish and dogmatic vision of the world, but it remains clear as day.

Actually, the king/emperor was not free from the religion unless there was bloody conflict. It was not a continuous process. It was a constant struggle back and forth, just like the cultural struggle of today. The cultural struggle today is not always violent nor always peaceful.

 

[Senethro]

Race is a social construct, but it's not an ideology, it's not a choice. Nobody chooses to be classified as white or black by society; being Muslim is a choice just like being a Marxist. Being black or white, while mostly meaningless from a genetic POV, is an innate characteristic of people over which they have no power. Failing to realize this key difference is beyond ridiculous.

Except you're obviously wrong. Many biracial people can choose their publicly presented race category.

Only a ridiculous person would deny this.

 

[Angst]

Do you know this feeling when someone else is doing or saying something so stupid and embarassing that you somehow even feel ashamed yourself?
That just happened to me, and it was a highly unpleasant.



I wish I could lol, but all I was able to do was to look down and facepalm.

I'm just confused Z answered it seriously. cake was obviously kidding...

 

[caketastydelish]

In my case it's hard to tell if I'm joking or serious. This is exactly how I like it, and how I intend to keep it.

 

[Angst]

I thought that post was quite clearly kidding really

 

[luiz]

Except you're obviously wrong. Many biracial people can choose their publicly presented race category.

Only a ridiculous person would deny this.

I'm wrong? So you think race is an ideology that we choose, just like being a liberal or a commie? You think there are some inherent mental characteristics to race, as in "all blacks believe in this", just like all Muslims believe there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his Prophet?

Coming to think of it, SJWs do treat race as an ideology. Maybe you're on to something here.

But then again, SJWs are idiots.

 

[JollyRoger]

So marching boldly to the gas chambers does not count as Reformation?

For one thing, each rendition seems to go out of it's way to get more militant than the one previous. It is just now we have the alt reformation Christians who think the Muslims have it all wrong.

If posters here think that reformation is putting down weapons and taking up farming, they have not studied the history of reformation very well.

Israel still targets schools and hospitals - not much progress since the atrocities bragged about in Joshua.

 

[Lohrenswald]

I can't be bothered to read the entire thread

re: OP:
To assume humans, who are very "adaptable" creatures, can't change something like a religion, is stupid

 

[timtofly]

Israel still targets schools and hospitals - not must progress since the atrocities bragged about in Joshua.

What good is reformation without targets?

 

[Senethro]

I'm wrong? So you think race is an ideology that we choose, just like being a liberal or a commie? You think there are some inherent mental characteristics to race, as in "all blacks believe in this", just like all Muslims believe there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his Prophet?

Coming to think of it, SJWs do treat race as an ideology. Maybe you're on to something here.

But then again, SJWs are idiots.

I think you're wrong, and I think most of your post is leading question garbage not worth responding to.

People in multiple racial categories obviously can choose one. I'd also argue that some racial categories are very close to ideologies. Like someone describing themselves as Aryan.

Checkmate.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, categories are fuzzy. I mean, there's a truth to the statement "you cannot choose your race". I mean, sure, some people can. But some people can't. And then, while race isn't cultural ... it kinda is. A person can choose to identify with and perpetuate [insert Race X] culture. It's not an iron-clad statement, and there will always be exceptions. But there are some things associated with certain races. Maybe it's a stereotype, but it absolutely exists. A person who's not you can look at you, 'guess' your race, and then form predictions about your cultural behaviour.. And a person can also look in the mirror, and decide whether their cultural behaviour is influenced by some random and meaningless phenotype-affecting alleles.

It's very different from self-identifying ideology. You can work to change what it means when you call yourself X, vs. their impression of what that means. If you tell me that you're a Hell's Angel, I'm going to make assumptions. And if you don't want me to think your hobbies include covering for drug dealers and misogynists ... well, maybe don't call yourself a Hell's Angel. Alternatively, you really will have to take the harder path. Identify as a Hell's Angel, and then really go out of the way to get people's biases to change.

A lot of people are trying to reform Islam. And Islam is not just a text. It's a series of memes. And memes can change. And then so will Islam. But there's a billion muslims, so remember to be patient as we learn that specific stereotypes are both true and not reliable as predictors of individual behaviour.

 

[luiz]

I think you're wrong, and I think most of your post is leading question garbage not worth responding to.

People in multiple racial categories obviously can choose one. I'd also argue that some racial categories are very close to ideologies. Like someone describing themselves as Aryan.

Checkmate.

I'm genuinely puzzled. Do you really believe what you're posting? 'Cause if you do, you show a tremendous difficulty understanding what words mean, and making very elementary logical leaps.

 

[Lohrenswald]

I'm genuinely puzzled. Do you really believe what you're posting? 'Cause if you do, you show a tremendous difficulty understanding what words mean, and making very elementary logical leaps.

sjews am i rite

 

[Berzerker]

Except you're obviously wrong. Many biracial people can choose their publicly presented race category.

Only a ridiculous person would deny this.

can they choose to be 'one race'?

 

[aelf]

Race is a social construct, but it's not an ideology, it's not a choice. Nobody chooses to be classified as white or black by society; being Muslim is a choice just like being a Marxist. Being black or white, while mostly meaningless from a genetic POV, is an innate characteristic of people over which they have no power. Failing to realize this key difference is beyond ridiculous.

Of course there are huge differences within Islam, but they all follow a Prophet who was also a warlord and conqueror. They all follow a Prophet who personally ordered massacres, and even killed people himself. That is a sharp contrast to Jesus, who is followed by Christians of all varieties, and it matters. This is obvious I should not have to point out, but everything must be pointed out to SJWs who live in their parallel universe. This has nothing to do with being black or white. There is no major unifying characteristic of those groups other than skin tone (which is quite varied too).

That's immaterial to the validity of a blanket analysis of a religion, tantamount to a rephrasing of the idiotic notion that analysis of race is wrong simply because it's about race.

I know anti-SJW warriors are extremely simple-minded, but try to follow the discussion. As I've explained, a blanket analysis of religion is bound to end up with the same untruths as a blanket analysis of race because it ignores significant variation within the category and tries to find some fundamental negative or positive common characteristic that likely isn't there or is greatly exaggerated. This has nothing to do with whether people can choose to belong in that category or not, a choice that really has zero explanatory power in this regard.

You've identified allegiance to the Prophet Muhammad as the common defining characteristic of Muslims. Congratulations on getting one thing right. But trying to link that to some common trait of Muslims that obviously doesn't exist in the real world is clearly a confabulation. Ignoring this, or precisely because they want to get around this problem, people who fancy themselves great un-PC analysts like to tell Muslims what Muslims should believe in to be 'true Muslims'. This is the same as, say, a white person telling people what they need to be like to really be black or Asian (which, though I know it's hard to accept for people who like to believe in fantasy, are also categories of self-identification). It's clearly stupid, but since these self-proclaimed analysts are stupid and bigoted, I guess no should be surprised about it.

 

[Berzerker]

blacks and asians dont share a common religious doctrine, Muslims do...

how many Muslims believe apostates should be punished?

there's another 'common trait'

 

[aelf]

Actually, as I was saying, what the simple-minded don't realise is that there is no single common religious doctrine that dictates how acceptable things like violence are.

 

[Berzerker]

then where did Muslims get the idea violence against apostates was acceptable?

 

[JollyRoger]

Joshua?