Why Islam is a problem for the integration of immigrants

Well, everyone is the problem Tim. I'm not going to follow you into, "everything is fine you don't need an exception" land becuz erry man is allowed to marry one woman. So long as she's pigmented right and is aged right and is related right. Derp.

I just grabbed that while casting about for an example of something that some religions support that is prohibited by law and therefore mostly not practiced even in those religions. Consider it with an eye towards how it parallels the second example, which is within that context, rather than as an individual issue.
 
I mean yes and probably yes. Mexicans in the US aren't shooting cartoonists that make fun of them in alt-right tracts, after all. I get you're trying to paint me as a racist though and that's kind of the problem I'm talking about. We can't even discuss actual problems with failure to assimilate and violent extremism that is often the result of that without someone like you calling everyone a racist.

It does make it really difficult when you have people reflexively assuming if there were large numbers of Chechens or other groups unquestionably considered white immigrating to Europe who may bring similar issues from a more conservative Muslim society, then no one would have any issues because of their skin color.
 
It does make it really difficult when you have people reflexively assuming if there were large numbers of Chechens or other groups unquestionably considered white immigrating to Europe who may bring similar issues from a more conservative Muslim society, then no one would have any issues because of their skin color.

I'm glad you said that, because as I see it the real problem is reactionaries, not specifically Islamic immigrants. And home-grown reaction is a much bigger problem in the US and Europe than is reaction imported by Muslims.
 
Well you seem to think the only or at least the primary reason people are reactionary over immigration is because of skin color.
 
Well you seem to think the only or at least the primary reason people are reactionary over immigration is because of skin color.

Not the only reason, but certainly I would argue it is the primary reason in the United States and a major reason in Europe, where the language and cultural differences seem to be of somewhat greater importance.
 
Well you seem to think the only or at least the primary reason people are reactionary over immigration is because of skin color.

In the US people are only reactionary about immigration if the immigrants are brown. I went around for a month one time telling people the reason I was off the books is because I came from Canada and overstayed my visa back in the nineties and have just been here ever since. I could barely stir up an "oh, that's interesting."
 
Not the only reason, but certainly I would argue it is the primary reason in the United States and a major reason in Europe, where the language and cultural differences seem to be of somewhat greater importance.

You really think the primary reason people have an issue with Muslim immigration is due to skin color?
 
You really think the primary reason people have an issue with Muslim immigration is due to skin color?

In the United States? Absolutely. We are obsessed with skin color here, I really try not to blame foreigners for not understanding. I'm not going to bother talking about Europe because I didn't say it was "the primary" reason in Europe.
 
In the US people are only reactionary about immigration if the immigrants are brown. I went around for a month one time telling people the reason I was off the books is because I came from Canada and overstayed my visa back in the nineties and have just been here ever since. I could barely stir up an "oh, that's interesting."

First, when we're talking about mass Muslim immigration this is mostly limited to Europe.

Second, I don't know if that anecdote is really very revealing. People are more likely to react negatively when they haven't had a personal interaction with someone and if there's not a lot of immigration from a particular country that's another factor. There's also the issue if people come from a country that's more poverty stricken. Someone who arrived illegally from Japan for example probably wouldn't bring up much outrage either.
 
You really think the primary reason people have an issue with Muslim immigration is due to skin color?

I think in the US if a person with a white skin says "I'm an immigrant" the primary response will be disbelief. Language of common usage is so perverted at this point that "immigrant" is not a term that applies to white people.
 
In the United States? Absolutely. We are obsessed with skin color here, I really try not to blame foreigners for not understanding. I'm not going to bother talking about Europe because I didn't say it was "the primary" reason in Europe.

The people you were responding to with bringing up skin color on the previous page were clearly talking about immigration to Europe.

I think in the US if a person with a white skin says "I'm an immigrant" the primary response will be disbelief. Language of common usage is so perverted at this point that "immigrant" is not a term that applies to white people.

Maybe for people from Canada because the countries are quite similar but most white immigrants are going to have an accent unless they arrived in the U.S. at a young age.
 
The people you were responding to with bringing up skin color on the previous page were clearly talking about immigration to Europe.

Skin colour's still an important factor in anti-immigration rhetoric in Europe. The anti-Moroccan rhetoric in Belgium, for example, is quite vile and almost entirely based on their darker skin and "foreign" values.
 
Maybe for people from Canada because the countries are quite similar but most white immigrants are going to have an accent unless they arrived in the U.S. at a young age.

In the US you don't have to be an immigrant at all to have an accent. Admittedly smarter USians might recognize that a particular accent is foreign, but most immigrants could get by with saying "I'm from the midwest," or whatever part of the country they aren't standing in at the time.
 
Skin colour's still an important factor in anti-immigration rhetoric in Europe. The anti-Moroccan rhetoric in Belgium, for example, is quite vile and almost entirely based on their darker skin and "foreign" values.

People may mention skin color as well as other irrelevant things like unusual clothing, accents and food as ways immigrants stand out but I stick to the religious and cultural differences as being the main reason behind opposition to immigration, at least as it currently is in Europe.

In the US you don't have to be an immigrant at all to have an accent. Admittedly smarter USians might recognize that a particular accent is foreign, but most immigrants could get by with saying "I'm from the midwest," or whatever part of the country they aren't standing in at the time.

I'm really not buying it that many Americans could not tell the difference between a Russian or French accent and a midwestern one. Maybe if we're talking about a regional American accent that was influenced by a particular European one.
 
People may mention skin color as well as other irrelevant things like unusual clothing, accents and food as ways immigrants stand out but I stick to the religious and cultural differences as being the main reason behind opposition to immigration, at least as it currently is in Europe.

I am not quite sure of the logic behind openly dismissing the reasons being offered to replace them with your own outsider perspective. It makes it seem like you're uncomfortable with race being important and thus denying its place in any discussion.
 
I'm really not buying it that many Americans could not tell the difference between a Russian or French accent and a midwestern one. Maybe if we're talking about a regional American accent that was influenced by a particular European one.

Tell the difference is an interesting phrase. Sure, I someone with a straight of the spy plane Russian accent pops up next to someone from Chicago tomorrow at Denny's the waitress is going to be able to "tell the difference." But without an immediate comparison source and as long as the just got here yesterday edges have been knocked off that same waitress will just say "had an accent" and if pressed for what kind will likely have to be prompted with samples.

On the other hand, if the person is brown the waitress will lead with that immediately in giving a description and is likely to be unable to provide a second line.
 
I am not quite sure of the logic behind openly dismissing the reasons being offered to replace them with your own outsider perspective. It makes it seem like you're uncomfortable with race being important and thus denying its place in any discussion.

Because the reasons offered don't really make a lot of sense. This doesn't mean we must deny race "its place in any discussion." What I object to is this automatic, "It's because they're brown people," point of view, which is simplistic and illogical. There are a number of examples of people in western countries discriminating against immigrants with the same skin color. Also I'm not suggesting that you were the one posting this, it was in response to other posts.

I would say that race is involved in that it groups everyone from a particular background as, when we're talking about Muslim immigrants, radical Muslims. Quite a few people from a Muslim background are secular. Most of the Iraqis I socialize with - not necessarily representative of the average Iraqi - never pray, many drink alcohol and several are secular to the point of being anti-Islam.

Most of these people do not speak English and have not traveled outside of the Middle East much if at all so this isn't just a case of assimilated immigrants. If they went to Europe, because they're from the Middle East and may have a name like Muhammed or Ali, people who are anti-immigrant will likely assume they are radical Muslims but that's far from the case.

With hundreds of thousands of migrants coming into Europe over the last 2 years or so, a number of high-profile terror attacks connected to radical Islam (though for the most part not perpetrated by recent immigrants/migrants) and the global conflict involving radical Islam I find it hard to believe the opposition to Muslim immigration in Europe comes from the fact that they are "brown people," which is also a rather inaccurate way to categorize people from the Middle East who will have a pretty broad range of skin tones but that's become popularized to the point it's hard to get rid of.

I don't know if I would put radical Islam as necessarily the #1 cause of anti-immigration as much as it may be the large numbers of people over the last few years and the cultural differences. It's also useful to distinguish between radical Islam and highly conservative Islam. Just because someone wears a burqa doesn't mean she or the men in her family support violence.

When it does play a part, I think skin color does make people more easily identifiable as part of a separate group. I wouldn't look to it for the primary reason people are opposed to immigrants. As if people would be totally fine with large-scale Muslim immigration if the people were all Chechens or Bosnians.

Tell the difference is an interesting phrase. Sure, I someone with a straight of the spy plane Russian accent pops up next to someone from Chicago tomorrow at Denny's the waitress is going to be able to "tell the difference." But without an immediate comparison source and as long as the just got here yesterday edges have been knocked off that same waitress will just say "had an accent" and if pressed for what kind will likely have to be prompted with samples.

On the other hand, if the person is brown the waitress will lead with that immediately in giving a description and is likely to be unable to provide a second line.

Chicago is an odd example. I don't think people in a huge city who likely see a lot of people of different backgrounds and races every day are likely to jump to assumptions like that.
 
Chicago is an odd example. I don't think people in a huge city who likely see a lot of people of different backgrounds and races every day are likely to jump to assumptions like that.

I actually used Chicago as an example of where the "not immigrant" would be from. I was thinking of this waitress at my local Denny's who I would be surprised to find had ever been out of California as the person who wouldn't know a Chicagoan from a Russian. The eastside Palmdale Denny's has not given her a lot of opportunity to become 'cosmopolitan.'
 
The people you were responding to with bringing up skin color on the previous page were clearly talking about immigration to Europe.

So what's you're point? I still think skin color is an important factor in European hostility to immigrants, just not the overriding factor as it is in the US. And when I say something is racist I'm not only talking about discrimination on the basis of skin color.
 
"Hey! Those people look different than we do, let's go taunt and repress them."
-random idiot
 
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