First off, let me say a few words (wish I had seen this thread sooner).
Can a easy-to-use, newb-friendly editor be created? Sure, and Lemmy101 is working on one now.
However, should it be implemented in the way you seem to desire, where everything is simply point and click and even a child can do it?
Hell no. Why, you ask? Oh, I'm an elitist prick, you say? No, not at all. Any kind of system that a child can use, will inherently be extremely limited for advanced modding. In your proposed system, you see many "new" units with slightly tweaked stats, and rehashed abilities.
That is a horrible modding community, in my opinion.
With the existing implementation, once we get C++ access at least, you will see large-scale total conversion mods that completely change the game's mechanics, add new mechanics, and could easily be called an entirely new game. Hell, even right now... In your proposed "Modding Paradise", there would not be mods such as Info Addict that add entirely new UI additions.
To go back to your example of Oblivion: How many Oblivion mods did something
new? Now, keep in mind: Adding a simple quest is not new. Adding a new race, new NPCs, new factions, is not
new as far as this discussion is concerned; That is all story-driven content which does not work in Civ. How many mods added entirely new mechanics? A handful. Out of hundreds of thousands.
That is not a healthy modding community (and it truly is not; The Oblivion modding community is closed and diseased, not allowing ANY mod to use ANYONE ELSE"S content without freaking out. All the Civ community asks is credit given where credit is due; Let's keep it that way please). To find any
good mods, you wade through an ocean of crap.
Again, I am not elitist. I started out knowing absolutely NOTHING about modding. I learned what I know (quite a bit now) by asking questions, and having someone (Typically Xienwolf, for which I am very grateful
) answer my questions. And I pass that straight along; My forum has a "Modmodder's Guide" thread where I answer the questions of any modder.
Realism is not Elitism. Desiring the ability to create actual new mechanics rather than rehash what exists is not Elitism.
Frankly, calling anyone who does not share your opinion elitist is the epitome of ignorance. You, sir, are an absolute moron.
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Does anybody remember what Civ4 modding was likely this recently after it was released? Based on what I have read in threads and such, I got the feeling it was almost this bad.
That said, Firaxis could have had the courtesy to include a mod that showed us how to properly get civs into total conversion mod where we replace them instead of doing the renaming things.
It was actually far, far worse. No capability whatsoever to add new UI screens, for example.
Total Conversions were simpler, but they ARE possible now, and will be made easier later on. There was
one man working on both the modding framework and the modding tools. People seem to think there were dozens of people on this project. There were not. Firaxis is not a large company.
Haven't played any of the games you cited in the OP, but were they really moddable? Could you change the underlying rules and make the game work different? Or could you just make things that looked the way you wanted them to look (within the framework of customization given to you...)?
For the Oblivion faces, could you have 12 eyes and 3,000 mouths if you wanted? Or 5 heads, 1 with scales?
Just saying that anything can be MORE moddable. And the easiest tools to use tend to have the most restrictions on potential end products (though the tools with the most freedom tend to be so complicated you only see minor/easy changes....).
We don't have the C++ code yet, you won't see the great mods till after that. Those which I know are being worked on are beyond what you can imagine.
Exactly. Any graphical tool of that nature will limit what can be done. An GUI modding tool (as opposed to something that retains much of the text aspect of modding, such as Lemmy's tool) is either limiting or must be updated if new stats are added to units.
Limited tools are not desirable, even if they are capable of making modding easy for children such as Kruelgor, as they limit the ability of others to do what is
truly new. Of course, I doubt he will understand this; Children typically want what they want and cannot be convinced otherwise.
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All I'm saying is if the core concepts of changing the tech tree, creating new leaderheads, creating new units, were all integrated with USER-FRIENDLY editing tools instead of relying solely on editing xml, lua, and c++ coding then what we would see is 10,000x more modded content and unique scenarios than what is currently the case. The game devs are relying on the limited content which will be published by the few who do understand all the complex coding which is currently required, and if you can't comprehend what I'm conveying then it's a simple case of either two things:
1) You prefer the way it currently is because you personally like the prestigious position of being one of the few who can create modded content, despite the fact that the game overall will suffer from MUCH less modded content.
and/or
2) You don't understand what you can't see. Since you can't see the hundreds upon hundreds of unique leaders, units, and scenarios that would have been produced with my proposed idea you therefore don't support it.
Or 3) Limited modding tools prevent the creation of
good mods. Such as Fall from Heaven, Rise of Mankind, Dune Wars, Planetfall, any other largescale Total Conversion.
Why would it prevent those? Because what you propose limits the capability of adding entirely new mechanics. Which all of those mods relied on, heavily.
Also: XML is not coding. It's freaking text, man. XML is something that absolutely noone who is capable of reading should need help with, unless there is a tag that is poorly named. If you are sincerely incapable of utilizing xml... Then I have no idea what to say to you, frankly, other than that I am sorry.
Also, just to refute your #2: Having more modded content does not necessarily mean it's a good thing, when 99% of that content is simply rehashing the same unit/building/civ stats.
No I agree with you completely. I have wonderful ideas for mods and there are so many things I would like to do and try, but I can't really implement any of it.
There are about 5 people or less in this community that could even come close to modding in some of the things I would like to try. As it is now, i've only barely managed to complete the absolute minimum of adding a new civ with terrible bland features, and even that isn't working properly.
The learning curve for modding is almost impossibly steep, and it could be made much easier with some simple tools. Creating unit art, leader art, and game icons with tools would be an enormous first step.
As it stands right now I have stopped modding until some new tools come out and the process is made easier.
The problem for you and me is this, Kruelgor:
1. The company wants to sell their DLC. They have the exclusive ability to make marvelous new content for their game because of the complexity of doing so. This is a demand that they hope to capitalize on (and can you blame them?).
2. It would take a lot of work to build these tools. Even worse, they wouldn't really be in a position to sell them. (Then again, why not? How about a $50 modder's kit, anyone?)
If what you want to do is not possible now, that is because the DLL is not accessible yet. It will be made accessible; The same kind of wait existed for civ4 as well.
The learning curve of any modding system that allows for the complexity necessary to create mods rivaling (or surpassing) FfH is, by necessity, going to be steep. However, I sincerely doubt there is ANY modder on this forum who would not answer your questions. I take the time to answer questions even of people I dislike; It does not matter. Others answered mine, so I will answer those of others.
And again, the main reason is simply this: There was one man working on modding framework and modding tools, and the kind of tools you propose are insanely limiting.
Sorry I think you'll find it's #3. "you have worked in the industry, and know what a GARGANTUAN task 3D editing tools are, much less a super editor that edits everything in the game in a nice friendly newbie friendly chunky way (you're probably talking 3 programmers minimum, probably 5-6 for what you're talking about, for the entire length of the project each on $30,000-$60,000 a year for 2.5 years, making a tool that the actual artists at the company would never even use, instead of working on getting the game finished AND modding support at the same time) and how if they had a few release problems and ran out of time in development to provide working mod tools they did provide, then it would be crazy to have expected this, frankly, all things considered."
Remember LBP is built around that as its core thing and that's pretty much all it is, It's not also a massively complicated strategy game. They could afford to have the majority of the team working on it, Firaxis could not otherwise the game would be 20x simpler than it is because they would have had to get this super editor done. ;D
LBP is also a console game that has the potential to sell millions and millions, not a couple of hundred thousand, so where is the money coming for this super app exactly? Some theoretical extra money from it having a longer life through modding? I'd love to see them sell that one to 2k.
Extremely well said.
It was fully expected that the "elitists" would be against my idea of fully integrated user-friendly functionality for modding. They don't give a @#$ about the game. They really don't. All they care about is themselves and whatever name they can create for themselves in the mod community. I look down upon that type of individual. Their own image comes before the better good of the game. I wouldn't give 2 cents for such a person.
For we all know if modding everything from units to leaderheads to the tech tree were made easy for ALL Civ5 players then the "elitists" would be overshadowed by the sheer amount of custom content and their poor egos would sink to near-insignificant and THAT is the real reason why they would never support my idea of user-friendliness.
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Allow me to reiterate what Lemmy said (and yes, I fully expect to be infracted. I do not care. This kind of attitude can destroy the community, so it is well worth this reply):
**** you, you stupid, spoiled little child.
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You have no clue, do you? The very person you are calling elitist, the very person you are flaming, is working his butt off creating an editor that even an imbecile such as yourself can use.
Yet you flame him anyway. Please, grow up. This is not a forum for children.
I whole-heartedly agree.
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¬¬
So instead of working on our own mod with our 'elitist' skills, hording our tools and thus making a mod that would far outstrip anything anyone else could possibly be able to do, that potentially 10,000+ people would play, we instead spent the entire time making newbie friendly tools so we can be adored by a small bunch of modders. Our egos are OUT OF CONTROL!
Apparently so.
At least you know that others are VERY grateful for your work.
You know, a simple 'you're right' would have avoided all of this, but you kind of trolled the topic away from the original discussion over to your project that you wanted to thump your chest about. Completely irrelevant btw. Nice. Good job.
There is absolutely nothing you can say to prove me wrong. Nothing. Fully integrated user-friendly functionality for editing/creating leaderheads, units, tech tree, etc... would have most definitely been a good idea.
Except you are not right. You could not be farther from right.
Let me summarize your arguments:
- Modding should be possible using a simple, user-friendly GUI tool.
- There should be tools allowing entirely new graphics to be assembled by pressing a few buttons (Hey, LBP did it!111!)
- Anyone who disagrees is a fascist, elitist prick.
Now, to refute them
once again, as
everyone else in this godawful thread has done:
- Any GUI tool is inherently limited. It makes it difficult to add new mechanics, rather than simply generate new content; And without new mechanics, new content is ultimately worthless. Yes, it makes it easier for others; But eventually, all mods would simply be clones of one another, nothing new being generated. That is not a healthy community. A balance must be struck between usability and customizability, and frankly they've done an excellent job with what they had.
- This is next to impossible. Oh sure, others have done it. It was also in games where the prime feature was that customizability, where the companies developing it were far larger, and they had dozens of people working on the tools! The only way your unit creation tool would have been possible would be with actual lego units. Not "like lego". Actual lego graphics.
- Anyone who refuses to even consider the opinions of others, and resorts to irrationally ignoring ALL counterarguments in order to continue pressing his point, is either a child, a moron, or a troll. Or quite possibly all three.
You're not right though. You're wrong. We just pointed it out to you and gave you a pretty in-depth reasoning why you were wrong, which you flagrantly ignored. That's kind of the point.
Also it's not irrelevant. You accused us of being elitist and preferring that only the 'blessed few' could mod, while we've been spending our entire time trying to enable as many people as possible to be able to mod, hence your accusation was grossly insulting and that needed pointing out to you. Ignorant to that though you were.
While that is nice of you and your friend to create tools for the community, I disagree that some joe off the street should have to do such a thing. All of this could had been avoided if the game devs had implemented my idea from the beginning. Besides, I'm skeptical that your tools can do even 10% of what I'm envisioning.
What you are envisioning is impossible without limiting the ability to add new mechanics.
Well, of course the tools can't do more than 10% (or 1% for that matter) of what you're envisioning. Because what you're envisioning is so far beyond what is possible to build into a turn-based strategy PC game with limited appeal and market-size that it's (to be honest) absurd. As we explained earlier.
It's a nice hypothetical idea, but impractical. That's all.
Well stated.
You're speaking pure rubbish and we both know it. Why don't you explain to me what I'm envisioning since you speak with such authority.
Multiple people already have.
Multiple people have already refuted your vision.
You ignore each and every single post that does so, selecting only those which you can twist in some way in order to advocate your own flawed, shortsighted vision.
So you're claiming that Firaxis is incapable. I disagree with that notion. I say it has to be planned from the beginning before the first code is typed. Firaxis most likely will never because they have "elitists" to do half-ass work for them.
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May riches be blessed upon the first game company who does create a moddable war game construction set.
Once again, a twisted argument.
"Construction Sets" are not modding tools. They are customization tools. Oh, you can use them to make pretty new towns, and buildings, and units, and fancy leaders, and oh it's all just so
pretty.
That does not mean it's modding.
To use Sims as an example: They have pretty easy to use tools, no? How many mods/addons/whatever actually introduce new mechanics, though? Say, a tile that teleports the character?
A few dozen, out of thousands. How many people actually created that content? A handful. That is not your modding utopia.
OH GOD NO!
They ARE incapable, because they are funded by 2K GAMES. Their staff are paid by 2K GAMES and the amount of money paid to Firaxis is for a certain amount of staff over a certain amount of time. And what you're suggesting would add a bunch of programmers to the project and make the costs rise massively, and if they had trouble finishing what they did put into the game then how would you expect them to get all this extra stuff in?
And all this on the PC platform where they've probably sold 200,000 units by now, compared to console games (Sims aside, but that's an exception) that sell MILLIONS of copies. It just wouldn't be green lit. We're lucky we got modding at all.
AGAIN we've explained this multiple times, do you have a blind spot in your vision?
Apparently, all considerations of money are irrelevant.
And quite frankly: We
are lucky we got modding. The lawyers didn't want it, can cause problems for the company if someone does something stupid. Why do you think the mod warnings are so blatant and impossible to get rid of without modding the core files?
Civ5 is a lot more moddable than most other strategy games (and will allow people to mod even the core game). Sure, it would be nice to have user-friendly WYSIWYG editors for leaderheads and an easy-to-use interface for adding techs, etc. but at some point it's unrealistic to expect a developer to create tools that are way better than what they use themselves without additional compensation.
Also, and I know you will call me elitist for that but couldn't care less, I don't think I would enjoy most mods that were made with such tools too much because they would most likely just add stuff. To really change the game rules or AI, you have to code, there's no way around it. And a strategy game is about its rules and AI for me, in contrast to an RPG like Oblivion where just adding stuff is actually meaningful.
Exactly.
Story-driven games like Oblivion can do very well with toolsets, rather than real modding; With a little scripting thrown in, you can develop some incredible quests, with driving stories.
That flatout does not work in a Civ game, however. What you'd end up with is a bunch of units that are near identical, as they are all just remixing the same exact stats. Once we get the DLL however (can't come fast enough
), we will be able to add entirely new mechanics.
For example, my mod team had an idea several months ago involving using social policies to add a new religion system (Much like your idea, Lemmy, even involving faith points; Apparently a good idea for two teams to think of it.
Fairly sure ours came first, though, as it was last december.
), but such a mechanic would not be possible to pull off well with a toolset; You'd be limited to the same mechanics as already in game. Which are already used for existing social policies.
Question:
Is it possible (now or future with a community mod tool) to make it so people who download a mod can edit it in ModBuddy? That is probably for me so far the biggest complaint with modbuddy. Being able to edit downloaded SQLs could be nice for modmod creation.
I'm sure it will be. I've asked for the ability to load modinfo files, and Lemmy's tool already allows you to do this.
amen to that.
I strongly prefer a system where modding is harder but allows more freedom in creation than a system where modding is easier but allows only hundreds of cloned mods... And no, you can't get both, a tool will simply never be able to anticipate all the ideas one may have to improve/change the game.
Extremely well said. Quoted for truth.
As far as I'm concerned, you sunk your own argument right there. I own and love both LittleBigPlanet and Modnation Racers, and am waiting rather impatiently for LittleBigPlanet 2. In those games, you don't MOD anything. You create content in those games using existing rules and content provided by the developers. What we do and try to accomplish here goes far beyond the scope of anything those games could accomplish.
Let's take the example of ModCivNation Racers. You want to build a custom track? Great! Lay your track, plant some trees and race away. But in ModCivNation, say you want to race on the yellow brick road to OZ. Pull out your XML and have at it! See the difference?
Quite frankly, Modbuddy and the rest of the SDK is not that hard to use. The people that are having a harder time with it are the ones with the bigger dreams that are basically trying to build a whole new game within the scenario of Civilization V.
If I moron like me can get an unique civilization up and running (with the help of the awesome people here of course
) modding isn't that difficult.
Again, quoted for truth.
And again, there is not a single modder on this forum who is not willing to answer questions, to explain how to accomplish things.
I have to agree with this. The first rule of modding in a new environment should be "start SMALL", both in terms of how much data you try to change, and in what functionality you try to add.
When I was first developing
Crazy Spatz's Alpha Centauri Mod (v.0.000001 available now for testing, in that thread!), my biggest mistake was that I started too big. I'd add 45 new techs, but an error on one of them would mean that none would load. I'd add 20 modifications to tile yields, but because I put IMPROVEMENT_FISHING_BOAT instead of _BOATS in one spot, none of it would load. And I've still got half a dozen Wonders with no effects because the effect I WANT for them simply isn't possible yet; I'm learning the .lua as fast as I can, but it's easily possible that some of what I'd envisioned won't be possible without source code changes that will never happen.
The fact is, "custom content" games like the Sims or LBP aren't truly moddable; you're still operating everything within the gameplay framework they've provided. For Civ, that'd be pointless; sure, people would come up with all sorts of historical scenarios and such, but in the end the basic strategies would remain more or less the same. XML editing suffices for that sort of change. My only real complaint about the XML edits in ModBuddy is that there's too little debugging feedback.
But we, as modders, want the ability to truly change the underlying game structure, and for that, there's no way the developers could have made a user-friendly interface that wouldn't be horribly limiting. And the potential for introducing crash-causing bugs skyrockets once you get into that sort of environment anyway so it's not something the casual player would be interested in.
QFT
Losers of the same feather will flock together. Enjoy yourselves. When you grow some balls to accept the hard truth then you'll be on my level. Until then you live in a fantasy world.
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Allow me to reiterate: You, sir, are a child.
Naturally, anyone who argues with a child can expect absolutely every point they make to be blatantly ignored.
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Didn't stop ME getting an infraction. For putting ASTERISKS. Pfft.
I expect to be right there with you after this... If so, it'll be the first I receive.
This kind of attitude just annoys me.
well to me the whole argument of easily making 3d leaders is moot. Who the hell even looks at those things anyways? not me certainly... Usually when an AI bothers me, I can't hit the "leave me alone" button quick enough. Total waste of time and effort for both firaxis and the modders if you ask me. elegant 2d images would have done just as well, and been about a thousand times easier.
Like it or not, the majority of Firaxis's money comes from casual gamers and impulse buyers.
Both are influenced heavily by shiny graphics.
Complete and utter fail. You would think that by Civ5 and the year 2010 they would have made this user-friendly, but nope.
