Why upset for European Civs?

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Yes but you complain about too many nations in Europe.

I'm not sure maybe Sweden under Gustavus was bigger than PLC (PLC was formed in 1569, in 1582 it had 815,000 square km and it reached its largest size - 950,000 square km - in 1619, after victorious wars against Russia and incorporation of part of Russian lands, including the city of Smolensk).

But even if Sweden under Gustavus had more than 950,000 square km - the majority of Swedish controlled territory was still a wasteland (basically everything in Scandinavia was a wasteland / forest except of coastlines and inland areas maybe up to 150 - 200 km from coastlines).

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Yes, you said they should be added as DLCs. But I don't think it is really such a great idea.

First off, I do not complain that there are too many Europeans. I merely observe that there is a disproportionate number of European civs compared to, say, Asian civs. True it is focused mostly on the west of Europe, but this is a game for that audience (Americans included), and to that audience Eastern Europe is not nearly as marketable as Western Europe. Russia covers the general image of most of that area anyway - hence Kievan Rus' would never be in the game. Personally, I would love more European civs, because to me Venice, Hungary and Poland are more interesting, but I respect enough that others do not share this opinion that I acknowledge the issue of disproportionate representation. Civ is not meant for validating nation-states. It is just a product, with the object to be sold. Apparantly Sweden has an image that Firaxis believes can sell seperate from that of Denmarks. That's good enough for me.

I'm not arguing Poland-Lithuania wasn't a great or large power. I'm not arguing that they don't deserve to be in the game. But because they were obviously precluded by the indication of Warsaw as a returning City-State far before Sweden was revealed, Sweden was one of few viable options left, and was especially one which was so fitting for the expansion. I've never said Poland-Lithuania or Hungary would be better off as DLCs, merely that their only chance would be as DLCs.

Sweden under Gustav was bigger than Poland-Lithuania, just perhaps not until after P-L's zenith. And true a lot of Sweden is and probably was "wasteland", but you can't rightly make that an arguement. Otherwise pretty much every other civ in the game would have far worse images than they do. Denmark, for instance, would be possibly the smallest nation in the game, because Greenland is mostly a wasteland (no offence). This would be the same case for England, America, Arabia, Russia, etc. There are probably only a handful of civs which held large empires which weren't actually mostly uninhabitable.
 
because to me Venice, Hungary and Poland are more interesting,

Yeah, Venetian Empire would also be a very good choice. They never had a large landmass under their control though, as they didn't really bother about controlling inland areas - what bothered them were coastlines, islands, important cities & castles and controlling lucrative trade routes.
 
(Americans included)Eastern Europe is not nearly as marketable as Western Europe. Russia covers the general image of most of that area anyway .

USSR may have owned Eastern Europe,but for only 43 years!

Since then everyone views Eastern Europe as Russia's backyard....

and the game of Civ is no different...
 
Since then everyone views Eastern Europe as Russia's backyard....

At least they should view it as Russia's frontyard, not backyard. :)

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Regarding Venice and other Italian city-states (some of which, mostly Venice, later expanded into empires).

At some point in time, the city of Venice alone had more affluent Treasury than the entire puny Kingdom of England. :)

Florence in 14th century before the Black Death had more money than kings and emperors of many large European states north of the Alps.
 
Speaking of Eastern Europe, I'm glad they gave it more attention this time around. Austria and the Huns are included on top of Byzantium and Russia. I do think there's a tendency to only care about Western Europe.
 
As an Taiwanese player, I don't find it odd that Europe is getting over-represented. They do have a lot of "culture" that is still visible today, while other places often get "westernized" after the colonial times. I see the civilization selection as mostly a marketing choice.

I do find it amusing that China and Mongolian both exist. In the same vein, we could very well use other famous dynasties to "cut up" China. The Cho, Han, Song, Tang, Ming, Ching are all good ones that have in the past unified China (more or less) and ruled for hundreds of years. But the majority of the world's players probably have never heard of most of them, so there's little market value to them except maybe in China, Taiwan and Hong Kong. Mind you, using Taiwan as a civ will guarantee a ban in China, but using old dynasties should pose no problems.

To be honest, I'm a little tired of seeing Chokonus and the Paper Maker. The Cho Dynasty saw the establishment of feudalism in China. The Han Dynasty was when paper was invented and philosophical thinking was at its highest. The Song Dynasty saw invention of movable type printing and was famous for its arts, poetry and scripts. The Tang Dynasty saw one of the most famous monk travel to India and bring back valuable Buddhist scripts which he later translated, they were also known for their arts. The Ching Dynasty, well, they were known for corruption and gave China its most humiliating piece of history, but anyway.

The point is, even if we put two of these into the game, people would just go "huh?" and start complaining, saying one China is enough (hey even the Chinese insist on one china! :lol:) and that the Sweden would have been better.
 
while other places often get "westernized" after the colonial times.

Yeah but this is how history went in reality. But it could have been completely different. This game starting year is something like 6000 B.C. So I guess they might as well make a game with 100% of fictional civs (and player would decide what his civ's name would be, etc.). :P
 
The lack of diversity in the Americas is absolutely atrocious. One argument against further inclusion has been that the peoples of the Americas were somehow not meeting the criteria for being labelled a civilization. This is preposterous and ample archeological evidence and the historical record refuse this out and out. Primarily as a result of massive depopulation due to disease, Native societies changed to become less sedentary post-contact in much of the Americas and until then a number of powerful polities and cultures existed in the Americas.

Examples abound - Mississippian culture is completely missing from the game. What a waste! The American southeast should somehow be represented - here again, archaeology and the historic record, most notably the account of the De Soto expedition show that the Mississippian peoples who became Cherokees, Choctaws, Creeks, Chickasaw, and Seminoles in response to disease epidemics deserve inclusion. They aren't called the Five Civilized Tribes for nothing and should be represented somehow in the game. Native resistance to US removal policies in the American Southeast sounds like another awesome scenario to me! Too, in the American west and mid-west options abound! I can see the Sioux with a very powerful cavalry UU and imagine a culturally or religiously focused Navajo civilization with bonuses in deserts! Moving to Canada - apparently completely devoid of civilization - how about the Inuit, maybe they can travel or even settle on ice. Algonkians? Chippewas? Hurons? Could make for a really cool cross-Atlantic fur and musket trade scenario. Before I go off on too much of a rant, I will end by saying simply that South America cannot be represented solely by the Incas.

Oh, and nobody in the Caribbean? Or Australia for that matter?

Give us more choices!!!

I agree I would love much more Pre-Colombian Representation/Americas Representation. But the problem with the Five Civilized Nations is that even though the Europeans called them that (and to be honest they weren't all that related to begin with it was just a way of clumping peoples together) they aren't in general well known on their own.

The Creeks, Cherokee, and Seminole you could say are the most well known of them. In the suggest a Civ Thread I came up with Marduk a scenario/civ outline for the Seminole based on the Seminole Wars. The Cherokee are well known to a degree as well with the Creeks. But even then importance wise is limited. Creeks you could argue I think better than the other two. Seminoles would be the most interesting game play wise in my mind and that also gives them a leg up (a Marsh Based Civ).

The Navajo/Apache are famous on their own right.

The Sioux have been used so frequently so they are of course the choice you would guess they would use. But me and others have proposed using the Comanche instead of the Sioux. The Comanche established a nice raiding empire against both Mexico and the USA and some of the most epic battles in the west were with them. One of the most famous Western/Plains Civs potentially that could get in instead of the Sioux (Since in Civ 5 we have seen some "similar" civs get replaced. Mali to Songhai, Khmer to Siam.) Besides an entire culture in America developed around them (The Texas Rangers).

Mississippians would be cool but may be a bit harder to implement.

The Pueblo/Anasazi are also frequently talked about here too and would make nice choices.

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So to sum up the ones with the best chance in the US (Not choice, typoed) I think right now would be:

1. Sioux
2. Comanche
3. Apache/Navajo
4. Pueblo/Anasazi

5. One of the 5 Civilized Nations
6. Mississippians
 
Yeah, I really don't mind what civilization goes in, as long as they (1) add flavor and (2) are interesting. Where the civ comes from doesn't really matter.

I mean, if you want representation, Northern America is larger than Western Europe, where are the Canadian folks? Heck, even Korea is represented---but then again the Koreans are mother of all human and they invented everything, did they not; so it's only right that they are represented and they should have all the special abilities of all leaders plus all the special units available to every civ. :lol:

Anyways, consider flavor first (which means history, lore, popularity, etc.), things like exotic ancient kingdoms, famous nations, old cultures, then design them to make them interesting. That makes a good civ in my book.
 
5 and 6 is pretty much the same - 5 is what remained after the collapse of 6.

Well, according to the legends of 5, at least. Some of the Five Civilized Nations can trace their origins to the Mound Builders. I'm a bit hesitant to put the Cherokee in this group because they speak such a different language (Iroquoian instead of Algonquin). Then again, we don't know if the Mississippians all spoke one language or not.
 
The Majapahit empire or the Srivijayan empire should be in the game to represents indomalay people.

They have distinct flavor as civilizations that grew on a giant archipelago, consisting thousands of islands.
Each of the biggest 5 islands and the malay penisula is easily bigger than some european country!

And dont forget that millions of tourist came to Bali island every year, which is whats left of majapahit empire.
 
I support a Han Civilization and a Song Civilization. Some people say, This game is Civilization, not Dynasties! but I should that we have -

Rome, Byzantium, and the Ottomans
Germany and Austria
Denmark and Sweden
 
Well... Rome or the Ottomans and Byzantium apply, but, as much as I may prefer or dislike some of the others going in over another option, they are distinct...
 
As a historian specialized in the study of the Atlantic World I have found this thread to be highly entertaining! :D

I agree with the opinion that the Civilization series should have much more ethnic and geographic diversity. I have a number of complaints about Africa, North and South America, and Europe. I am much less familiar with Asian history and so I yield to the voices of others regarding specific civilizations to add from there.

It was not until after the conquests of the Aztecs and the Incans that European civilizations obtained real, long-term advantage over other Old World civilizations in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. Spain flooded Europe with gold and silver from the New World and though Spain itself never really managed its economy very well, suddenly wealthy Spaniards, eager to spend on consumer goods, ultimately provided the funding necessary for the growth of manufacturing in other European countries that eventually led to very significant technological advantages over the rest of the world. After the Spanish Reconquista and despite the Inquisition Spain was the dominant power in Europe. For 700 years Spanish soldiers had fought against Muslims and by 1492 they were pretty darned good at doing things like laying siege to towns. New World armies had difficulty competing against them. Even still, smallpox and a host of other Old World diseases had much more to do with the beginnings of European hegemony in the New World than any advantage that the Europeans possessed in technology or resources.

I begin with Europe because my objections with how that continent has been portrayed in the game are smallest. Let me put this out first - I like the fact that lots of European civilizations are in the game. Super, really! But not if it comes at the expense of all other continents in the world. Let's make one thing clear right off the bat - in its present configuration (as well as CIV III and IV and likely before that but I wasn't playing) Civilization is blandly and almost pointlessly Euro-Centric. Still, with that said, I do not fully understand why Portugal is not represented in Civ V. The accomplishments of the Portuguese Empire quite frankly demand their inclusion in the game as a fully playable civilization. I do not believe this point is debatable.

Why no Zulu? Southern Africa deserves at least one civilization! The history of West Africa is very interesting and the inclusion of Mali would make a pretty neat scenario when paired with Songhai. Perhaps even a broader West African scenario might include the many African empires that fought for control of the slave trade? Perhaps this theme might be a bit too dark - but powerful kingdoms like Ashanti, Dahomey, and Kongo helped shape the modern world and would enrich the Civilization franchise with or without a scenario. However, labor systems in and of themselves have played a crucial role in history among all cultures and civilizations and would make for interesting content for another expansion or VI.

The lack of diversity in the Americas is absolutely atrocious. One argument against further inclusion has been that the peoples of the Americas were somehow not meeting the criteria for being labelled a civilization. This is preposterous and ample archeological evidence and the historical record refuse this out and out. Primarily as a result of massive depopulation due to disease, Native societies changed to become less sedentary post-contact in much of the Americas and until then a number of powerful polities and cultures existed in the Americas.

Examples abound - Mississippian culture is completely missing from the game. What a waste! The American southeast should somehow be represented - here again, archaeology and the historic record, most notably the account of the De Soto expedition show that the Mississippian peoples who became Cherokees, Choctaws, Creeks, Chickasaw, and Seminoles in response to disease epidemics deserve inclusion. They aren't called the Five Civilized Tribes for nothing and should be represented somehow in the game. Native resistance to US removal policies in the American Southeast sounds like another awesome scenario to me! Too, in the American west and mid-west options abound! I can see the Sioux with a very powerful cavalry UU and imagine a culturally or religiously focused Navajo civilization with bonuses in deserts! Moving to Canada - apparently completely devoid of civilization - how about the Inuit, maybe they can travel or even settle on ice. Algonkians? Chippewas? Hurons? Could make for a really cool cross-Atlantic fur and musket trade scenario. Before I go off on too much of a rant, I will end by saying simply that South America cannot be represented solely by the Incas.

Oh, and nobody in the Caribbean? Or Australia for that matter?

Give us more choices!!!

agree with you, all of us wants Portugal and the Inuit for next civs :D, I would like to consider Tupis, and cannibal traditions, that would be a good UA,
 
And so on and so forth. The civ isn't defined by its leader figure, who is often anachronistic.

I disagree, in civ V, I think that civilizations represents an specific moment of each civ, obviusly Alexander just represetn hellenic Greece, but not represent the arcaic and classical Greece, the same with the rest of leaders, but specially with leader like Genghis, Ramesses, Moctezuma or Askia, when their civilizations are completely different through the ages
 
I would like to consider Tupis, and cannibal traditions, that would be a good UA,

Tupi sounds interesting,but it would be too awkward if they got before Brazil,because I'm pretty sure the city list of Tupi would be taken from the list of Brazilian cities(obviously,avoiding using name of the most important cities in Brazil),since there aren't any records that they have founded cities . Same problem with Inuit,whose city list would be based on Canadian and Greenland's cities name .
 
Tupi sounds interesting,but it would be too awkward if they got before Brazil,because I'm pretty sure the city list of Tupi would be taken from the list of Brazilian cities(obviously,avoiding using name of the most important cities in Brazil),since there aren't any records that they have founded cities . Same problem with Inuit,whose city list would be based on Canadian and Greenland's cities name .

They could use the name of Tupi tribes to make up the list. The capital could be one of the most important tribes (Tupinambá, perhaps?).

But while I don't think their city list or unique features would impose a problem, I do not regard the Tupi as South America's best choice... Only if they were willing to fill its Eastern side and Brazil were ruled out for some reason.
 
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