Wild Mana for FF

[Jheral]

That was actually my main idea if I make them explorable.

Neat. If you don't mind me asking, what do you have in mind for the effects?

 

[esvath]

Hello.

I played with the original Crystallized Mana and it was fun! A LOT of fun! Glad to see this project is being re-worked. I think you should name it Mana +

By the way, there is a little problem left with this modmod : AIs workers do not upgrade refined mana into proper mana node. In the previous version, we spot that instead of building a Water node on a Water mana, AIs tended to build farm instead etc. This problem is not specific to this mod, AFAIK. If we raze a mana node, the AI will never built mana node on top of it. I believe this is based on AIs inability to understand "mana".

One of the solutions proposed was to make other improvements invalid to build in mana. So AIs will be forced to build mana node instead. Maybe you have a more intersting solution? Or maybe FF already dealt with this? I might be able to steal some code, then...

Glad to see this!

 

[Valkrionn]

So I forgot to give some spawn ideas before, so I'll throw some out. Before that though, 3 things to consider: 1. I interpret the way you're going to do this as having "spawner" wandering creatures and gaurdian node protecting creatures, so in most cases I put the weakest first so they could wander and the more powerful second to guard; 2. I listed at least 2 usually tried to find 4, I don't know if you like the idea of it but what if wild mana nodes that haven't been conquered get more powerful spawns after a certain time/tech req./whatever? 3. The more choices I provide, the easier this should be on you. Anyway, here you go.

-snip-

So a couple in there are insubstantial, but you could either repeat spawns (no one said they couldn't spawn the same things) or just make new units. The latter probably isn't worth the trouble though. Also, I really couldn't think of anything that great for force of spirit. I was thinking maybe spirit could have a mechanic that disallowed any combat in a 1 tile radius, but that got shot out of the air as soon as Deadliver mentioned something about settling on nodes, and then of course settling even near a spirit node would be unbalanced. Just thought it would be fitting if Sirona's nodes would grant a form of sanctuary really.

Anyway, there you are. Probably cause you a headache with all of these posts.

Actually, that list will be very useful... I hadn't thought about having progressively stronger summons, but that would actually let you claim some nodes early if you try... Could do it easy with upgradeable nodes. Might not be able to force a defender on all of them that way though.....

You actually came to the same idea I had with Enchantment mana, I just didn't want them to be that strong and able to wander. Hadn't wanted to write any python to hold them yet either.... But that'll come when I rewrite it.

Neat. If you don't mind me asking, what do you have in mind for the effects?

Not completely sure. I know I don't want the same rewards as normal lairs... too boring. I think a good epic reward would actually be gaining the ability to use the type of mana you're clearing... A good negative would be gaining a weakness. I'll probably end up making a few new promotions like Heroic in Doviello+, as that one would be PERFECT for Spirit mana.

Hello.

I played with the original Crystallized Mana and it was fun! A LOT of fun! Glad to see this project is being re-worked. I think you should name it Mana +

By the way, there is a little problem left with this modmod : AIs workers do not upgrade refined mana into proper mana node. In the previous version, we spot that instead of building a Water node on a Water mana, AIs tended to build farm instead etc. This problem is not specific to this mod, AFAIK. If we raze a mana node, the AI will never built mana node on top of it. I believe this is based on AIs inability to understand "mana".

One of the solutions proposed was to make other improvements invalid to build in mana. So AIs will be forced to build mana node instead. Maybe you have a more intersting solution? Or maybe FF already dealt with this? I might be able to steal some code, then...

Glad to see this!

Actually, I think I might have an idea for that.......

 

[The NeverTide]

Glad to be of help.

As far as the enchantment creatures, what if you gave the creatures spawned at the mana a promo that had an equivalent form of the repentant angel's ability/curse? As in every x turns they lose a point of strength to represent the enchantment wearing off? They'd be powerful still and all, but they would at least degrade over time.

I really like the idea of getting a chance to get a negative resistance modifier or maybe learning a spell from that sphere. The negative modifier would make the owning of certain mana nodes yet more strategic (just makes me sad that it can only be explored once). Would it be too overpowered to allow units to learn any level of that sphere? Maybe with a degrading percentage chance? 55% chance to learn tier 1, 25% chance to learn tier 2, 15% chance to learn tier 3, 5% chance to learn both tier 1 and tier 2. Meh, just an idea.

I think you should name it Mana +

That's a great idea.

 

[WarKirby]

Death mana should spread haunted lands!

Also, I third the suggestion of naming this Mana+

 

[Valkrionn]

I think I've already decided to have Death Mana spread HL. It fits, it gives benefits AND has drawbacks, which makes it perfect in my book.

For the spell learning, maybe limit it to tiers? Tier 1 and 2 units can only learn lvl 1 spells, tier 3 can learn level 2 spells, tier 4 can learn level 3 spells.... Gives you an immediate benefit if you explore, but a larger benefit if you hold off and just surround the node.

And I WOULD name it Mana+, if the original idea were mine. I'm going to keep it Wild Mana in honor of the original author, as that's what he called the last version.

 

[deadliver]

Good for you Valkrionn! Too many people *sponge* up ideas and steal them their own. Also, Wild Mana sounds pretty cool.

Anyhow...

I am kind of scared about this mana terrain spread and other ideas...wreaking havoc on those poor scouts who have dodged skeletons and worse just to end up leaving with two arses and legs in between! heh, awesome.

The payoff should be pretty sweet though! Keep up the good, and potentially scary, work!

 

[The NeverTide]

Wild Mana ... +?


I do admire the fact that you respect the original author though, definitely a good trait.

I like that idea, allowing each tier of units to access their (semi)respective tier of spells. That actually seems a lot more balanced, good idea! But.. how do you keep the AI from running in and exploring before you hit T3 or 4 units? Seems kinda harsh to keep closed borders the entire time and simultaneously not build on the mana. Then again, elemental summoning immortals might be worth that

I am kind of scared about this mana terrain spread and other ideas...

I imagine there will be a way to restrict the effects with a little editing of the code... I think.

 

[deadliver]

lolz. The more chaos the better. I'll never forget those 3 civs wiped out within 5 or so turns when I first played this mod mod in 2008. There was a whole continent infested with barbarians. It was beautiful.

 

[Valkrionn]

Haha, honestly, I 'sponged up' Deon's ideas with Malakim+.

Yes, it would be a pain to keep them around that long, but potentially worth it. Which is something I like. Same kind of value a worldspell should have....

I'm GOING to have a game option lol. I refuse to let the code beat me. So long as I'm putting in the one, I can always put in a second to allow mana to spread terrains...

Sun - Desert
Ice - Ice(Obviously...)
Water - Upgrades surround terrain?
Fire - Chance to burn off any nearby forests?
Death - HL
Chaos - Random Changes
Entropy - Hell Terrain. Yes, it will make some games rather scary.....
Earth - Chance to create hills?
Nature - Creates forests on featureless terrain, Ancient Forest on forests? Maybe scrubs for desert, and jungles for marsh.

 

[Opera]

The Water mana could just give fresh water to surrounding tiles and turn desert to plains/flood plains without changing the terrain itself that much.

I like the other ideas. I may sponge this finally, rather than doing something very different. I really like it

 

[The NeverTide]

lolz. The more chaos the better. I'll never forget those 3 civs wiped out within 5 or so turns when I first played this mod mod in 2008. There was a whole continent infested with barbarians. It was beautiful.

That's harsh! Can't wait though.

True, already excited by the idea of immortals summoning elementals and reviving heroes.
Also, will you only be allowing units to gain spells from the arcane line, or have you considered using the divine line as well? Not sure if it fits/is really even possible, but it adds more diversity. Berserker with crush? Yes please. (actually I think crush is an ability...)

I like the ideas for terrain changes. Really I just like the fact that water spreads irrigation, not sure if it needs anything else, but upgrading nearby terrain could be really handy. And I think you should really include the chance of burning forests for fire, it just sounds awesome to have a fire node surrounded by burnt forests lol. The scrubs on desert is a really good idea, didn't even think about that or the jungle.
Oooh hell terrain, I think that could really balance out the -5% heal rate it gives (which is surprisingly painful), and would make it even more useful for the Sheiam So far as I can tell, that is really all the mana types that can logically spread terrain types. Unless of course Vehem's evil forest event has a terrain feature, then maybe shadow can spread that.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Haha, honestly, I 'sponged up' Deon's ideas with Malakim+.

Yes, it would be a pain to keep them around that long, but potentially worth it. Which is something I like. Same kind of value a worldspell should have....

I'm GOING to have a game option lol. I refuse to let the code beat me. So long as I'm putting in the one, I can always put in a second to allow mana to spread terrains...

Sun - Desert
Ice - Ice(Obviously...)
Water - Upgrades surround terrain?
Fire - Chance to burn off any nearby forests?
Death - HL
Chaos - Random Changes
Entropy - Hell Terrain. Yes, it will make some games rather scary.....
Earth - Chance to create hills?
Nature - Creates forests on featureless terrain, Ancient Forest on forests? Maybe scrubs for desert, and jungles for marsh.

You could have water make the surrounding terrain wetter, not necessarily just improve it. Maybe work like a reverse scorch? Turn desert to plains, plains to grass, tundra/grass to marsh, and marsh to lake. Could also spread river...although I'm not sure how that would work?

Raising the land is great for Earth. Once again presents a mixed blessing, which is perfect. Maybe have a small chance of minerals appearing when the hill is raised and/or occasional volcanoes??

Creation...I'd like to see it spread bonuses and animal dens. "Oh cool, horses just sprouted up! Oh crap, so did a cave bear den!!!" Maybe have it work as a spreading vitalize effect with a small random chance for one or the other to spawn when it improves a tile?

 

[Valkrionn]

You could have water make the surrounding terrain wetter, not necessarily just improve it. Maybe work like a reverse scorch? Turn desert to plains, plains to grass, tundra/grass to marsh, and marsh to lake. Could also spread river...although I'm not sure how that would work?

That's actually what I meant, though I don't think I'd allow it to create lakes.

Raising the land is great for Earth. Once again presents a mixed blessing, which is perfect. Maybe have a small chance of minerals appearing when the hill is raised and/or occasional volcanoes??

Creation...I'd like to see it spread bonuses and animal dens. "Oh cool, horses just sprouted up! Oh crap, so did a cave bear den!!!" Maybe have it work as a spreading vitalize effect with a small random chance for one or the other to spawn when it improves a tile?

I like the idea for creation... Could be powerful, but painful at the same time. Although a Cave Bear den would be rather devastating....

 

[Milaga]

I just installed FF+ and this modmodmodmod but I'm having the hardest time getting a good game start. I'm almost always seeing five or more mana nodes near my starting position. This has happened not just with Erebus and Pangaea map scripts. I've only done standard size, maybe the size of the map has something to do with it too.

I checked the WB on a few of them and it only seems to be in my starting position, the rest of the map looks sound. Also, it doesn't seem to be limited to mana nodes. I had a start that was on the ocean and the water tiles were, literally, all fish and crab. So something in the map script is adding a lot of extra resources to the starting position.

Gonna futz with it some more before I pull out the wild mana.

 

[Valkrionn]

I'm beginning to think I missed a few of the <bNormalize> tags when I merged it.... Should have removed them all, but if I didn't then they'd be popping up in starting locations. Haven't checked yet because it won't work anything like the way it does currently when I'm done.

 

[WarKirby]

I think Entropy mana spreading hell terrain might be a bit much.

I'd rather see it cause -1 food in nearby plots, and turn forests into dead forests,

 

[Milaga]

I'm beginning to think I missed a few of the <bNormalize> tags when I merged it.... Should have removed them all, but if I didn't then they'd be popping up in starting locations. Haven't checked yet because it won't work anything like the way it does currently when I'm done.

You mentioned you were looking into game options. On the outside chance I had a hidden game option enabled, I did a "Play Now" game and it generated fine. I think went back and examined the options I put in before. Unchecking "Flavour Start" seemed to solve the problem.

Despite comments to the contrary, Flavour is trying to improve the yield of the starting plot by adding these mana nodes.

Spoiler entrypoints/CvFlavourInterface.py line 641 :

							if not pPlot.isGoody():
								iValidBonuses = []
								for iBonus in range(gc.getNumBonusInfos()):
									if pPlot.canHaveBonus(BonusTypes(iBonus), False):
										if cymap.getArea(pPlot.getArea()).getNumBonuses(BonusTypes(iBonus)) > 0:
											pBonus = gc.getBonusInfo(iBonus)
											if pBonus.getYieldChange(YieldTypes.YIELD_FOOD) > 0:
												iValidBonuses.append(iBonus)
								if len(iValidBonuses) > 0:
									iBonus = iValidBonuses[dice.get(len(iValidBonuses), "FlavourMod")]
									iFoodYield += gc.getBonusInfo(iBonus).getYieldChange(YieldTypes.YIELD_FOOD)
									iBestImprovementYieldChange = 0
									for iImprovement in range(gc.getNumImprovementInfos()):
										pImprovement = gc.getImprovementInfo(iImprovement)
										if pImprovement.isImprovementBonusMakesValid(iBonus):
											iImprovementYieldChange = pImprovement.getImprovementBonusYield(iBonus, YieldTypes.YIELD_FOOD)
											if iImprovementYieldChange > iBestImprovementYieldChange:
												iBestImprovementYieldChange = iImprovementYieldChange
									iFoodYield += iBestImprovementYieldChange
									pPlot.setBonusType(BonusTypes(iBonus))

Flavour works fine without the mana 4mod. Without digging deeper, I don't know why it fills all available plots with food resources only with the changes. CIV4BonusInfos looks fine.

 

[Valkrionn]

Ah...... Explains alot, actually. Flavourstart balances starting locations so they're more or less equal, and I added small yields to the manas. Flavourstart is using them to fine tune starting plots. Since the Flavourstart is handled in Python, I SHOULD be able to get it to ignore mana resources.

 

[Opera]

That brings back that I want to disable that balancing of starting locations. I don't want equality when I play, it's boring. I want harsh starts! Or great ones! Yahoo!

Hum, whatever. I started a game with Wild Mana too. Unfortunately, I had Flavour Start enabled, so there was plenty of mana nearby. I was playing the Malakim (first time I play them with Malakim+) and got a Metamagic mana nearby! I was quite happy. However, I didn't see any wild nodes, don't know why.