Wilders won - or did he?

I wonder if the unelected Lord Ahmed will turn up outside of parliament with 10,000 screaming Muslims. The BBC couldn't avoid that! :lol:
 
Freedom can go to hell?

Would be slightly amusing if the policeman bludgeoned his brains out with a nightstick for no reason.

Yes. It's like beating up kids who wear anarchist t-shirts to high school. What are you going to do about it, tell a teacher?
 
Obviously he believes there is a clear limit and that is incitement to violence. And since he also believe that Koran directly incites to hatred, he wants to ban it according to the existing Dutch laws.

I still don't see any hypocrisy in that, regardless of whether I agree with it or not.

Except he's singling out the Koran for no other apparent reason than some fear-mongering because Muslim immigrants are Europe's new misfits to pick on. John Lennon was murdered by someone who strongly associated with The Catcher in the Rye. Shall we ban that too, since it incited someone to violence? Why not go for the Bible as well? The God of the Old Testament alone is more than a wee bit sadistic. He could be directly inciting violence! And that's not even touching abortion clinic bombers.

It's hypocritical once again, because as he triumphs his own entrance to the UK as a victory for free speech, he wants to restrict someone else's. That is a textbook example of hypocrisy. Just because he's being a "moral guardian" about it, doesn't make it any less hypocritical.
 
Except he's singling out the Koran for no other apparent reason than some fear-mongering because Muslim immigrants are Europe's new misfits to pick on. John Lennon was murdered by someone who strongly associated with The Catcher in the Rye. Shall we ban that too, since it incited someone to violence? Why not go for the Bible as well? The God of the Old Testament alone is more than a wee bit sadistic. He could be directly inciting violence! And that's not even touching abortion clinic bombers.

It's hypocritical once again, because as he triumphs his own entrance to the UK as a victory for free speech, he wants to restrict someone else's. That is a textbook example of hypocrisy. Just because he's being a "moral guardian" about it, doesn't make it any less hypocritical.

The Bible never incited anyone to violence. This literature connection, Death of the Salesman is not incited anyone either. If it killed Jonh Lennon then it is too hard to make a good case for to ban it.
Quran is different, it is used again and again by the violent Muslims...

But in honesty does Gilders think he can ban a whole book central to 5-10% of his countries people?
They can use the internet.
I think this is a more symbolic move. Which is exactly what we need, more Dutch symbolism so that we can show these radical Muslims who is boss.
 
The Bible never incited anyone to violence. This literature connection, Death of the Salesman is not incited anyone either. If it killed Jonh Lennon then it is too hard to make a good case for to ban it.
Quran is different, it is used again and again by the violent Muslims...

Do you really want to make the claim, that in the centuries since it was put together, the Bible never incited anyone to violence? Killing in the name of religion or a religious text is not a phenomenon found only in Islam.

And it was The Catcher in the Rye, not Death of a Salesman. Look up Lennon's killer, Mark David Chapman, he was obsessed with it. He literally believed himself to be Holden Caulfield.

But in honesty does Gilders think he can ban a whole book central to 5-10% of his countries people?
They can use the internet.
I think this is a more symbolic move. Which is exactly what we need, more Dutch symbolism so that we can show these radical Muslims who is boss.

Except this is right-wing xenophobia. Wilders has a history of preaching against all Muslims, not just radical ones. Banning the Koran is just one thing he wants done. He's part of a group of people that are convinced that Islam is literally taking over European culture. Which is a complete load.
 
You really can't get more indirect than a out of context quote from a 1400 year old book, sorry.

Due to the real world examples like... um, all the terrorist attacks we're seeing, it looks like it is pretty much up to date :p

In any case, I don't think Koran should be banned. In fact, I think even Mein Kampf should be legal, and according to Wiki, so does this Wilders guy - it seems he just argues for equal application of Dutch law, hence the comparison between Koran and MK.

And no, it's not direct. Direct would be what I said - a person telling people to go out to the streets and kill all the Infidels right now. This is different because it is directly causing violence. This is quite different from an ideology whose goal is to exterminate all the Infidels - the best cause to fight that is condemnation and ostracism, not oppression.

Eurotrash use the flimsiest excuses to get whatever speech they dislike banned. This is the case for Wilders as it is for the UK. This is possible because they do not have a coherent view of freedom of speech.

No again.

No, the same fundamental restrictions applies across the continent - what differs is merely what is acceptable and what is not. There is no difference between banning Nazi speech and banning Wilders' speech outside of what precisely they preach and the degree to what people find acceptable.

Nope. The difference is just as clear as the distinction you apply. You're confusing the fundamental basis of the freedom of speech in Europe with the abuses motivated by multiculturalism and fear of angering pretty much any minority vocal enough to scare multiculturalist-oriented governments. It's funny that in most cases, when this goes before court of law, the court rules against the government. Happened with Wilders in the UK and the same will probably happen with the second lawsuit in the Netherlands.

As for anti-Nazi laws, they should be dropped since they're a leftover from early post-war era. Of course Americans will never understand the reason why they exist, so it is pointless to explain it to them.

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Oh, here's the wiki article (didn't check the sources, so I don't know how legit it is:

Given that Wilders has allegedly called for the ban of the sale of the Koran while simultaneously arguing for his own personal freedom of speech,[citation needed] editorials in Alternet, The Montreal Gazette, The Wall Street Journal, The Guardian, and The New York Times have accused him of hypocrisy.[48][59][69][70][71] In a speech during a Dutch parliamentary debate, Wilders elaborated that he calls for the consistent application of Dutch laws restricting any act of expression that incites violence.[30] Ideally, he would prefer to see nearly all such laws abolished.[28][72][73]
 
The Bible never incited anyone to violence.

... really?

Num. 15:32-36

Matthew 10:34

Num. 31:15-18

In fact, go ahead and read the books of Numbers and Leviticus in its entirety.
 
Most of Europe is headed down the Islamist route anyway. Remember only last decade the violence in the Balkans Serbs vs Bosniaks - the Bosniaks grew to an almost equal number as of Serbs when they are too many you gotta cull'em. It will happen to the rest of Europe soon and US will be bombing us :P
 
Plan B to be used on Europe? An abhorrent concept, but what has to be done must be done.
 
Most of Europe is headed down the Islamist route anyway. Remember only last decade the violence in the Balkans Serbs vs Bosniaks - the Bosniaks grew to an almost equal number as of Serbs when they are too many you gotta cull'em. It will happen to the rest of Europe soon and US will be bombing us :P

Nah, Serbia was always hated by the westerners. Serbia just wanted an acess to the sea, but the WEST always refused tohand them a small port. Serbia is a sad case, they bombed Serbia because the Turks convinced America that Muslims will love them if they bomb those pesky Serbs. So they did and less then 2 years later these same promised "muslims" bombed the Trade Centers.
But the moral is that we need to get rid of this influence of "concessions to the turk". It will never end till the one who is concedded is given total power... concessions to be untouchable is just the begininning.
Seriusly Wilders was banned... The only other people banned from England were 2 known Islamic terrorists/fugitives. 2 jailed Russian Neo-Nazi's and Mafiosoas. And Gert Wilders.
He does not deserve to be on the same level as criminals and terrorists, his message should be allowed a freedom. As we give these "freedom go to hell" people a free ride in England. A No more "freedom go to hell" message should be treated equally. Man there is people who will be interested in this!!
British National Party is very interesting because it is all legal, but the treatment of its members. If someone attacks them, which has happened it is not a hate crime. Some ANTI-FA idiots released their information to the public and 2000 or 200 members were harassed by these ANti-Fa.
 
Most of Europe is headed down the Islamist route anyway. Remember only last decade the violence in the Balkans Serbs vs Bosniaks - the Bosniaks grew to an almost equal number as of Serbs when they are too many you gotta cull'em. It will happen to the rest of Europe soon and US will be bombing us :P

Nah, Serbia was always hated by the westerners. Serbia just wanted an acess to the sea, but the WEST always refused tohand them a small port. Serbia is a sad case, they bombed Serbia because the Turks convinced America that Muslims will love them if they bomb those pesky Serbs. So they did and less then 2 years later these same promised "muslims" bombed the Trade Centers.
But the moral is that we need to get rid of this influence of "concessions to the turk". It will never end till the one who is concedded is given total power... concessions to be untouchable is just the begininning.
Seriusly Wilders was banned... The only other people banned from England were 2 known Islamic terrorists/fugitives. 2 jailed Russian Neo-Nazi's and Mafiosoas. And Gert Wilders.
He does not deserve to be on the same level as criminals and terrorists, his message should be allowed a freedom. As we give these "freedom go to hell" people a free ride in England. A No more "freedom go to hell" message should be treated equally. Man there is people who will be interested in this!!
British National Party is very interesting because it is all legal, but the treatment of its members. If someone attacks them, which has happened it is not a hate crime. Some ANTI-FA idiots released their information to the public and 2000 or 200 members were harassed by these ANti-Fa.
Have you two been drinking Kool-Aid, or what?

Serbia was bombed due to the fact that it was ethnically cleansing Bosnians, and the US wanted to weaken a Russian ally. It had absolutely nothing at all to do with Turkey, and the US didn't help out Bosnia and Croatia out of any feelings, one way or the other, towards Muslims, but due to political pressure to intervene in the situation. Since Serbia was winning - after all, the Bosnians were far from equal in numbers - and it behind most of the massacres - not that any side in the war was innocent, but if you control more enemy territory you're more capable of massacring said enemy - there wasn't really much support for the US helping Serbia, now was there?

And the Muslims who bombed the WTC were completely different to those in Bosnia. Muslim != terrorist.
 
I am sure you'd find a way to downplay it even if 40,000 nutjobs attended the demonstration.
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Anyway, did any major Islamic organization in the UK denounced the demonstrators carrying these banners ("freedom go to hell")? I am just asking.

I 've driven through the "red quarter" Bois de Blogne near PAris last night, on my way to a friend's house. I've seen about 40 eastern european prostitutes. They have weird ways of making money in those countries :mischief:
 
I only have a Dutch source for this, and I doubt this will spark any interest from international news organisations, but instead of denouncing the demonstrators and focussing on them, the NMR (Dutch Muslim Council) seeks to engage Wilders in a dialogue.

Moslim Raad nodigt Wilders uit voor 'constructieve dialoog'


They say they understand the concerns, but they can't all be blamed on the Koran. Key part:

(Shoddy translation in red)
Toepassing

Moslims geloven dat de Koran veertien eeuwen geleden werd geopenbaard, schrijft de raad. Ze lezen hun heilige boek daarom ook in de geest van de tijd waarin de profeet Mohammed heeft geleefd en streven naar een toepassing die recht doet aan de huidige tijd.

Application

Muslims believe the Koran was revealed 14 centuries ago. They read the sacred book in the spirit of the time in which Mohamed lived en strive for an application which does justice to the current time


Kritisch

In de Koran vinden moslims de aansporing en handreikingen om met respect en vreedzaam samen te leven met geloofsgenoten en met niet-moslims, ook mensen die de islam kritisch benaderen.

Daarom vindt de raad de verdieping van de discussie noodzakelijk om te komen tot een genuanceerd beeld van de islam, de Koran en de leefwijze van moslims.

Critical

In the Koran muslims also find motivation for respectful and peaceful coexistence with those who share their believes and those who don't, including those who are critical of Islam

The council judges that more indepth discussion is necessary for a more nuanced image of Islam, the Koran and the lifestyle of Muslims

As I said before, this is more constructive than giving the loonies more spotlight time.
 
Yes. It's like beating up kids who wear anarchist t-shirts to high school. What are you going to do about it, tell a teacher?
Indeed. :lol:
I only have a Dutch source for this, and I doubt this will spark any interest from international news organisations, but instead of denouncing the demonstrators and focussing on them, the NMR (Dutch Muslim Council) seeks to engage Wilders in a dialogue.
As I said before, this is more constructive than giving the loonies more spotlight time.
This sounds good.
 
... really?

Num. 15:32-36

Matthew 10:34

Num. 31:15-18

In fact, go ahead and read the books of Numbers and Leviticus in its entirety.

Of course legal judgements are going to be violent, since often for extreme cases death was the punishment. Also Jesus' comment is prophetic since every where people have preached his message, it has been met by hostility, which is what he was talking about, not that it is a message of violence. But there are numerous references in the Koran to kill infidels, which simply do not occur in the Bible.
 
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