Will it be steam based?

[cspyr0]

I don't see how steam prevents piracy any more than other forms of DRM. Could you explain that?

If you go to any torrent site and try to find a game that is on Steam but not Steam-exclusive, I guarantee the game you download will have been cracked from the non-Steam version of the game. Same as ArcadicGamer, I too pirated quite a few games in the past, and Steam-exclusive games were an absolute to make work because it involves cracking the game AND Steam, which usually creates horrible instabilities.

I agree with you Joseph that choice is a good thing. I don't want everything to be Steam exclusive. But I would be happy if Steam were to get more popular to force the competition to be less invasive. A lot of the publishers are moving to worse and worse schemes, like Assassin's Creed 2 which forces you to be online constantly when playing single player. I'd much rather they look to Steam for ideas.

@PieceOfMind: To clarify I mean that there will be a version on Steam that requires Steam to be played, and there will be a version with some other DRM that does not require Steam to be played.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Ok, the steam supporters might attack me to no end for what I'm about to post. I admit I am not making any effort to promote Steam so my comments can be considered as biased.

I don't want flames in return but any answers to the concerning questions I ask is definitely much appreciated. Apart from playing TF2 I have limited experience with actually using steam.

I just read the STEAM™ SUBSCRIBER AGREEMENT

Spoiler :

5. ONLINE CONDUCT, CHEATING AND ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR

...

Steam and the Steam Software may include functionality designed to identify software or hardware processes or functionality that may give a player an unfair competitive advantage when playing multiplayer versions of any Steam Software, other Valve products, or modifications thereof ("Cheats"). You agree that you will not create or assist third parties in any way to create Cheats. You agree that you will not directly or indirectly disable, circumvent, or otherwise interfere with the operation of software designed to prevent or report the use of Cheats. You acknowledge and agree that either Valve or any online multiplayer host may refuse to allow you to participate in certain online multiplayer games if you use Cheats in connection with Steam or the Steam Software. Further, you acknowledge and agree that an online multiplayer host may report your use of Cheats to Valve, and Valve may communicate your history of use of Cheats to other online multiplayer hosts for Valve products. Valve may terminate your Account or a particular Subscription for any conduct or activity that Valve believes is illegal, constitutes a Cheat, or which otherwise negatively affects the enjoyment of Steam by other Subscribers. You acknowledge that Valve is not required to provide you notice before terminating your Subscriptions(s) and/or Account, but it may choose to do so.

So negatively affecting the enjoyment of other steam users is reason enough for your subscription or account to be terminated. Suppose you go online to play multiplayer in Civ5 and you "backstab" a couple of other players who were in an alliance with you. Given that a lot of people don't enjoy losing, it could negatively affect their enjoyment of the game and Steam has the right to cancel your subscription.

Further, Steam has the right to do it without providing you any notice. Not even a warning is strictly necessary.

I have heard stories before of people being banned or having their subsciptions cancelled (e.g. in TF2) and in probably more than 99% of those cases they deserved it. The risk is always there that someone who didn't really deserve it got banned, and those people will forever flame Steam in various forums (though this thread hasn't been affected by such a user I don't think).


I can understand that many of you hold Steam in very high regards and rightly so. I've always held Google in high regard as well, and funnily enough one of their most important mottos for employees is "Do no evil". While I think the ability of people to have faith and trust is a good and valuable thing, it's worth noting that any corporate entity rationally acts in its own interests. While Google has benefited many people around the world with most free services, there is nothing to say they'll never do anything that won't negatively affect its users. Indeed, in Italy Google execs recently were sentenced to prison terms because of a "bullying" video that had been posted on youtube (which Google owns).

A. EXCLUSIVE REMEDY -- STEAM AND STEAM SOFTWARE.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY DISPUTE WITH VALVE WITH REGARD TO STEAM OR THE STEAM SOFTWARE IS TO DISCONTINUE USE OF STEAM AND CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT. BECAUSE SOME STATES OR JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR THE LIMITATION OF LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, IN SUCH STATES OR JURISDICTIONS, VALVE, ITS LICENSORS, AND THEIR AFFILIATES LIABILITY SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW.

If you're a steam subscriber and already have accounts for several games, how awkward a position does this put you in if you do end up in a dispute over something with Steam? All you can do is cancel your account/subscriptions. This means you will not be able to play any games that require steam to be running I presume.

As a Steam user, you're pretty much committed to sticking with steam through and through. So how many people who have used steam extensively, had a problem with steam, have you heard from? Probably not many considering the agreement you have to accept.

You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Valve, its licensors and their affiliates from all liabilities, claims and expenses, including attorneys' fees, that arise from or in connection with breach of this Agreement, use of Steam or any Subscription, or any User Generated Information or Third Party Content, including, but not limited to, the creation, distribution, promotion and use of any Mods, by you or any person(s) using your Account. Valve reserves the right, at its own expense, to assume the exclusive defense and control of any matter otherwise subject to indemnification by you. In that event, you shall have no further obligation to provide indemnification to Valve in that matter. This Section regarding Indemnification shall survive termination of this Agreement.

I'm not really sure what that one means. Maybe someone with some skill in legal jargon can clarify.



As far as I can tell, there is nothing stopping Valve from eventually charging a fee for providing its service. It would have to give you enough notice (30 days I think) but can anyone show me where it says Steam will always be a free service?

14. APPLICABLE LAW/JURISDICTION

The terms of this section may not apply to European Union consumers

You agree that this Agreement shall be deemed to have been made and executed in the State of Washington, and any dispute arising hereunder shall be resolved in accordance with the law of Washington. You agree that any claim asserted in any legal proceeding by you against Valve shall be commenced and maintained exclusively in any state or federal court located in King County, Washington, having subject matter jurisdiction with respect to the dispute between the parties and you hereby consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of such courts. In any dispute arising under this Agreement, the prevailing party will be entitled to attorneys' fees and expenses.

This might make things difficult if you ever have a dispute and are outside of America? I don't think this point is very noteworthy but I thought it best I mention it nonetheless.

By the way, Valve's privacy policy can also be read here. It seemed to be pretty standard.

 

[cspyr0]

Ok, the steam supporters might attack me to no end for what I'm about to post. I admit I am not making any effort to promote Steam so my comments can be considered as biased.

I don't want flames in return but any answers to the concerning questions I ask is definitely much appreciated. Apart from playing TF2 I have limited experience with actually using steam.

They pretty much have to be purposely vague about when they can ban you so that they can ban cheaters without getting sued. Cheating is already a problem in TF2 (I also play) - it would be much worse if the 12 year-old bastards weren't afraid of losing the game.

I've read of a lot of people getting banned from TF2 (I frequent the Steam forums), but never have I heard of Valve shutting down the person's entire Steam account (even if they were cheating). So you don't have to worry about losing everything. I'm not going to say with 100% certainty that the ban hammer could never be dropped on someone innocent, but Valve is pretty meticulous about who they punish. Like you said, corporations work in their own interests, and banning people for no reason would bring a P.R. nightmare to their doorstep.

While I'm not too worried about it, Valve having the power to ban people will be a legitimate concern for some people - and I don't fault anyone for that. The activation servers that other companies use will likely have similar catch-all clauses though, so if it is a concern make sure you guys read up on the end-user agreements like PieceOfMind did for whatever DRM you choose. Kudos for reading through that crap by the way, I hate that stuff.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

L4D2 was a disk but that doesn't mean it didn't use steam. .

I have L4D1, the (inferior) sequel L4D2, and the Orange Box on Steam. For all games, I have the CD/DVD, because I like a "backup" in case they screw up their servers big time. If Google can have mail problems, Valve can have Steam problems.

Having said that, I'm a big fan of Steam. It updates my games for me, I can put the CD/DVD on the shelf, I can install the game on different computers at the same time. With the coming release of Steam for the Mac, I am hoping that they will include an option to download different versions depending on the operating system -- pick OS X and Windows depending on the machine, for the same price. With Blizzard, it looks like I'm going to have to make a decision, play StarCraft 2 on my Win XP quad core or my MacBook, but not both.

The ease of use far outweighs any worries I have about not "owning" the game. We're not talking about the baby photos of my children, after all: These are games, and the just have to work for about five or six years (though the original HalfLife works fine with Steam, too).

So I am not looking forward to having to keep the DVD in the player and all the other copy protection crap that Firaxis will feel like they have to install. Civ Colonization wouldn't start at first in once instance because the stupid SecureROM mechanism didn't recognize the DVD player. Give me Steam over that any day.

 

[Berba]

But what the heck is D2D then?

 

[Grey2ham]

Just to highlight the kind of issue the 'if we're going to have online DRM make it steam' lobby are going for:

Ubisofts DRM servers crashed/overloaded this weekend. People could not play their single player games (Assasins Creed 2, Settlers 7 beta) as they couldn't connect to the authentication servers. Legitamate users were prevented from playing as Ubisoft couldn't maintain their servers. (Side note for firaxis, this actually makes pirated copies that don't require you to be online 24/7 more attractive)

This would not happen with steam. You would be able to run the game via steam's 'offline mode' (caveat: provided you authenticated it 1 time [usually straight after or straight before install - it only associates the CD key to your account]).
e.g. Total War (empire + napolean) can be run offline even if steam's servers are down.

We should be arguing for steam as the online DRM method (Or something equivalent provided by firaxis themselves) but nothing like 'games for windows live' or Ubisoft's evil evil must be online to play system.

Ideally we'd all love no online DRM. Or just a cd-key check.
But do you guys really think thats going to happen?
I don't.

 

[Grey2ham]

But what the heck is D2D then?

Direct 2 Drive is a digital games delivery platform.
Steam is a slightly more advanced digital games delivery platform that integrates DRM and community features.

 

[Chalks]

So negatively affecting the enjoyment of other steam users is reason enough for your subscription or account to be terminated. Suppose you go online to play multiplayer in Civ5 and you "backstab" a couple of other players who were in an alliance with you. Given that a lot of people don't enjoy losing, it could negatively affect their enjoyment of the game and Steam has the right to cancel your subscription.

This comment is so ludicrous that I'm not even going to answer it. I'm just going to quote it like this. Just going to leave it hanging there at the top of my reply. Yep. There it is. The embodiment of why I have such a hard time taking half the people in this thread seriously.

 

[deanej]

Wow, you ignore an issue that exists because of the way the policies are outlined? The policy CAN be interpreted that way.

 

[Chalks]

Wow, you ignore an issue that exists because of the way the policies are outlined? The policy CAN be interpreted that way.

By someone who is intentionally misinterpreting it. Congratulations, your defence of this post completely proves my point.

Steam was started as the distribution method for counterstrike.

For your next trick, I assume you are going to say that people could get banned from steam every time they headshot someone.

It is, in every conceivable way, a bloody stupid thing to say. The fact that you grasp so desperately at this intentional misinterpretation shows how tenuous your existing arguments are. It is a sign of true desperation.

 

[deanej]

No, it's a sign that I recognize that things can be interpreted in different ways. You can't recognize that fact. There's a reason legal documents are over very, very long written in language that's difficult to understand: it limits the possible ways to interpret it (hopefully allowing the document to be interpreted only in the way the writer intends, but this is rarely the case). You need only look at the strict vs. losse interpretation of the Constution debate that took place in the early 19th century to see that my point is true.

 

[Chalks]

No, it's a sign that I recognize that things can be interpreted in different ways. You can't recognize that fact. There's a reason legal documents are over very, very long written in language that's difficult to understand: it limits the possible ways to interpret it (hopefully allowing the document to be interpreted only in the way the writer intends, but this is rarely the case). You need only look at the strict vs. losse interpretation of the Constution debate that took place in the early 19th century to see that my point is true.

Yes, things can be interpreted in different ways. Well done.

I'm not trying to claim that it is not an interpretation.

I am saying that it is a stupid interpretation, and one that is provably wrong.

 

[deanej]

I don't think we can say that any interpretation is right or wrong. Given that it's steam's EULA, only they can say which is right or wrong. Remember: the company is always right (like it or not, that IS how it works these days).

 

[Chalks]

I don't think we can say that any interpretation is right or wrong. Given that it's steam's EULA, only they can say which is right or wrong. Remember: the company is always right (like it or not, that IS how it works these days).

Yeah, why let evidence and logic get in your way when spreading mindless FUD.

I commend your commitment to the cause.

 

[The_J]

Just to highlight the kind of issue the 'if we're going to have online DRM make it steam' lobby are going for:

Ubisofts DRM servers crashed/overloaded this weekend. People could not play their single player games (Assasins Creed 2, Settlers 7 beta) as they couldn't connect to the authentication servers. Legitamate users were prevented from playing as Ubisoft couldn't maintain their servers. (Side note for firaxis, this actually makes pirated copies that don't require you to be online 24/7 more attractive)

This would not happen with steam. You would be able to run the game via steam's 'offline mode' (caveat: provided you authenticated it 1 time [usually straight after or straight before install - it only associates the CD key to your account]).
e.g. Total War (empire + napolean) can be run offline even if steam's servers are down.

We should be arguing for steam as the online DRM method (Or something equivalent provided by firaxis themselves) but nothing like 'games for windows live' or Ubisoft's evil evil must be online to play system.

Ideally we'd all love no online DRM. Or just a cd-key check.
But do you guys really think thats going to happen?
I don't.

I've also read this, and if i had been one of the players, i would never ever buy a game from Ubisoft anymore. Ths is just ridicilous.

I'm not trying to claim that it is not an interpretation.

I am saying that it is a stupid interpretation, and one that is provably wrong.

Well, i would like to see the proof...

 

[Chalks]

Well, i would like to see the proof...

I just shot someone in counterstrike and did not get banned.

How utterly astonishing.

Please forgive me if I do not reply again immediately, I think I need to get over how incredibly shocked I am that I am able to decrease someone's enjoyment of the game by beating them and not get banned. I'm going to have to sit down for a bit while weeping for joy.

Anyone else want to completely destroy their credibility by trying to claim that you are going to get banned from steam for breaking a Civilization peace treaty?

Please do. It makes a nice change from having to reply to people who aren't saying things that a 5 year old could understand are utterly stupid.

 

[Intellectus]

Doesn't matter I am getting the collector's edition. You can't get that in a download.

 

[azzaman333]

Wow, you ignore an issue that exists because of the way the policies are outlined? The policy CAN be interpreted that way.

But it won't be. It's vague so valve can ban people who are cheating in some way they may not have forseen.

 

[deanej]

Indeed it is (I highly doubt they would use it for any other purpose). Most of the time stuff like that is inserted in case of lawsuits. But Chalk's attitude is what gets me. As far as I can tell, he sees anyone who disagrees with him as wrong.

 

[Jamuka]

I love steam, it is the most convenient and best service. I hate buying a physical copy of the game, if it gets scratched or lost I'm screwed.
I urge all of the dissenters to try it out, I imagine most of you would end up liking it.

PS: during the holidays steam was selling Civ4, all the xpacs, and colonization for $13 total. I already owned Civ4 on CD, but bought it anyway simply because I like to have it on steam more.