Will it be steam based?

[Jawa'sRevenge]

Did you know that the majority of steam-only games are still released in a physical disc format that you can install from the disc, then register on steam?

What the point of Steam then?

 

[negZero]

So what's with the Steam promotion I see in this thread? And why are those of us who don't want Steam being treated like dirt? I see a lot of "answers" that support Steam which are not accurate.

Show them or GTFO

Fine. But my point still holds true for games that do do multiplayer through a central server. Actually, it still holds true for those too, cause the pirate will simply go without the game rather than pay for the game.

So the companies should now care that pirate isn't will to pay for a game he wasn't going to pay for anyways? That makes no sense.

What the point of Steam then?

As alternative form of distribution of video games.

 

[deanej]

If a pirate isn't willing to pay for a game in the first place they won't buy it even if they have to. Therefore it isn't a lost sale so the company has no reason to care - with or without the DRM (which for this argument we assume actually works for its stated purpose), the company's profits are identical.

 

[negZero]

If a pirate isn't willing to pay for a game in the first place they won't buy it even if they have to. Therefore it isn't a lost sale so the company has no reason to care - with or without the DRM (which for this argument we assume actually works for its stated purpose), the company's profits are identical.

Outside of those pirates that want updated and play multiplayer with there game. Then those guys will have to buy copy because of the DRM.

 

[Jawa'sRevenge]

Outside of those pirates that want updated and play multiplayer with there game. Then those guys will have to buy copy because of the DRM.

There is always a work around it, those pirates will always find a way.

 

[negZero]

There is always a work around it, those pirates will always find a way.

No we've been over this nobody can fool server, your stuck with messing around with client side code only.

 

[deanej]

If the pirates actually did infect a server with malware that would let them in they could do it. But that would be more effort than it's worth (at least for a pirate).

I don't think the hardcore pirates are the type that would want MMO play and would probably find a way to get updates anyways. Casual pirates will buy if there is an easy and convent way to do so, and the product isn't overpriced (such as the people who bought Spore and installed a pirated version because they didn't want SecuROM).

 

[Jawa'sRevenge]

No we've been over this nobody can fool server, your stuck with messing around with client side code only.

OK, that makes sense, guess I would not know I tend to play older multi-player games, my two favorites: Jedi Academy, and Civ III

 

[PieceOfMind]

Yes, yes you are. Like it or not, refusing to utilise the modern world leaves you in the past.

There is no impetus to design games that work for people with no internet access because you are an insignificant portion of the gaming public. There really isn't any excuse. Dial up will do for this purpose. A free AOL dial up CD. Satellite internet exists for remote locations. Even if you are living in a cave that cannot receive satellite and have no phone line in your house it still wouldn't matter because you are such a tiny minority.

Additionally, since you CLEARLY have access to the internet by some method, even if it is an internet cafe simply owning a lap top would allow you to validate the game.

So yes. If you do not have internet access AND do not own a lap top AND do not have a working phone line but you ALSO want to play modern games you are in a tiny minority of people living in a technological stone age but wanting the benefits of 2010.

I'm sure you don't like this fact. That doesn't make it less true.

Interesting read.

When you attach enough qualifiers to any category (e.g. 30 year old coffee drinkers who use an internet cafe and have a cat) of course it's going to be a tiny minority!

Can I also point out that the people who passionately desire this game to be steam-only is a tiny minority?

Yes, it can. You can back up steam games to a DVD or harddrive, then install them from there. The version you back up it the version you reinstall.

Sorry to seem rude, but your post really is moot, and I'm sick of all this misinformation after 8 pages.

Ok that does address many of my concerns. The final concern I have is in regard to modding and whether they use a different directory structure etc. and whether that causes compatibility problems. But then, if the game was steam-only, funnily enough, it would be a non-issue as everyone would be using that version.

The second lol final concern I have is: Why would I want to use steam when it's possible to play the game without steam? In general, I think introducing more and more systems into any product makes it more and more likely to fail in some way or other. Just look at cars made before the 90s (or whatever the more exact date is) that were entirely mechanical and didn't have much elecronic systems. When they broke down or had a problem, more than often the owner could determine the fault himself/herself (and sometimes fix it) but nowadays we rely heavily on the mechanics who pretty much exclusively know the ins and outs of the complicated cars and we have little freedom to go with other "service providers".
My point here is that unless Steam is actually simpler and requires less system overhead than an alternative DRM scheme, why should I prefer it? Particularly when I'm not interested in the other advantages of Steam including social networking and downloading entire games.

 

[negZero]

If the pirates actually did infect a server with malware that would let them in they could do it. But that would be more effort than it's worth (at least for a pirate).

I don't think the hardcore pirates are the type that would want MMO play and would probably find a way to get updates anyways. Casual pirates will buy if there is an easy and convent way to do so, and the product isn't overpriced (such as the people who bought Spore and installed a pirated version because they didn't want SecuROM).

And if pirates were able to walk into the office grab the server wheel it out then (yeah this has happen, poor IT guy thought of everything but the good take the damn thing)

Pirates get updates sometimes and I mean sometimes, there games out there that just don't have hackers to ever get updates ever.

Can I also point out that the people who passionately desire this game to be steam-only is a tiny minority?

Can I point out that no one is saying that this should be Steam only? Were just saying put the tinfoil away.

The second () final concern I have is: Why would I want to use steam when it's possible to play the game without steam? In general, I think introducing more and more systems into any product makes it more and more likely to fail in some way or other. Just look at cars made before the 90s (or whatever the more exact date is) that were entirely mechanical and didn't have much elecronic systems. When they broke down or had a problem, more than often the owner could determine the fault himself/herself (and sometimes fix it) but nowadays we rely heavily on the mechanics who pretty much exclusively know the ins and outs of the complicated cars and we have little freedom to go with other "service providers".
My point here is that unless Steam is actually simpler and requires less system overhead than an alternative DRM scheme, why should I prefer it? Particularly when I'm not interested in the other advantages of Steam including social networking and downloading entire games.

Okay to all the anti-Steam guys out there lets get this straight right here right now

THERES AN OFFLINE MODE

Thats right kids you only need to turn Steam on once a month thats it

 

[ArcadicGamer]

Ok that does address many of my concerns. The final concern I have is in regard to modding and whether they use a different directory structure etc. and whether that causes compatibility problems. But then, if the game was steam-only, funnily enough, it would be a non-issue as everyone would be using that version.

.

One of the major adavtatges of STEAM for modders is a "verify local files" tool that can search your installs of a game and replace any corrupted/missing files when it finds them. This was invaluble for myself when i toyed with a HL2 mod back in the day, and in my CSS days where random files would just get corrupted from overuse/file to large. (an issue since fixed).

The file structure for CIV4 was different for some reason, however, it was simply a mirrored structure for each expansion, rather than a total rehash. There was a minor issue with online and HOF mods working, but it was a simple fix.

I've been using STEAM since Half-Life 2 and while it hasn't been a storybook marriage, i have hardly any major complaints. Sure, for COD4:MW i had to re-download the whole game because they didn't anticipate 2+million pre-orders corrupting their server files, and being a newcomer to Fanatics, i had to wait till we could solve the puzzle of why HOF mods didn't work. But, i haven't bought a non-STEAM PC game in 3 years at least. I've moved from WinXP to Vista to 7 with it, downloading some 500GB worth of games over each install and failed installs of windows. I used to delete and install CounterStrike every week after a match to keep the installs fresh and bug free. STEAM has never once said anything

In my experience, many of the issues people have with STEAM are their own. I had a few friends at college who swore STEAM was the devil because they couldn't do x. I showed them how, and they now use it with ease. Sure, the HL2 launch was a disaster, and the Total War problems probably could have been solved by some clearer language, but 99% of the time, it just works. With no hassle. Online or off.

All i care about for CivV is the steam version doesn't use the boxed version's DRM, like say Bioshock 2 or Assassins Creed 2.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Can I point out that no one is saying that this should be Steam only? Were just saying put the tinfoil away.

And can I point out I never objected to Steam being an optional method of distributing the game? Read my posts. My objection is to Steam being the only method of distribution. Whether you agree or disagree with my reasons can be argued, of course. Afforess has done the best job of doing that so far.

The possibility that the game be Steam only has been mentioned in this thread so your assertion is in error. IIRC Chalks is one of the posters advocating adopting Steam's DRM exclusively because it's preferable to all other DRM methods.

Okay to all the anti-Steam guys out there lets get this straight right here right now

The second () final concern I have is: Why would I want to use steam when it's possible to play the game without steam? In general, I think introducing more and more systems into any product makes it more and more likely to fail in some way or other. Just look at cars made before the 90s (or whatever the more exact date is) that were entirely mechanical and didn't have much elecronic systems. When they broke down or had a problem, more than often the owner could determine the fault himself/herself (and sometimes fix it) but nowadays we rely heavily on the mechanics who pretty much exclusively know the ins and outs of the complicated cars and we have little freedom to go with other "service providers".
My point here is that unless Steam is actually simpler and requires less system overhead than an alternative DRM scheme, why should I prefer it? Particularly when I'm not interested in the other advantages of Steam including social networking and downloading entire games.

THERES AN OFFLINE MODE

Thats right kids you only need to turn Steam on once a month thats it

Are you trolling me or did you not properly read what I wrote. An "offline mode" to me implies the program at least needs to be running. From the info I have read in this thread, it seems that steam-based games need Steam to be running in the background. If steam-based games ACTUALLY mean that Steam simply is the method to install them and after that Steam has no effect, then I would be quite misguided and have been making wrong assumptions.

Using capital letters makes your response look more like an emotional one than a reasoned one.

 

[PieceOfMind]

One of the major adavtatges of STEAM for modders is a "verify local files" tool that can search your installs of a game and replace any corrupted/missing files when it finds them. This was invaluble for myself when i toyed with a HL2 mod back in the day, and in my CSS days where random files would just get corrupted from overuse/file to large. (an issue since fixed).

Ah, that would be neat and would have proved most handy for me on many occasions where it was a single file or two I had either removed or edited by accident (sometimes I could have sworn I never touched a thing, but a re-install fixed anyway).

It makes it into the "plus book" of me considering Steam.

The file structure for CIV4 was different for some reason, however, it was simply a mirrored structure for each expansion, rather than a total rehash. There was a minor issue with online and HOF mods working, but it was a simple fix.

Combined with the unpredictability and sort-of-unreliability of Firaxis for providing timely, bug-free patches, this would always have been a concern for me during the days of Civ4. It was simply safer to go with the version that the majority of users were using, including modders.

Whether it's justified or not, much of the stigma, at least for me, would have been generated from the Bug Reports forum which I would attend fairly regularly. Even if the bug is easily fixed, as with any software, it's generally best to go with something that is known to be reliable than one that is buggy but has known fixes.

I've been using STEAM since Half-Life 2 and while it hasn't been a storybook marriage, i have hardly any major complaints. Sure, for COD4:MW i had to re-download the whole game because they didn't anticipate 2+million pre-orders corrupting their server files, and being a newcomer to Fanatics, i had to wait till we could solve the puzzle of why HOF mods didn't work. But, i haven't bought a non-STEAM PC game in 3 years at least. I've moved from WinXP to Vista to 7 with it, downloading some 500GB worth of games over each install and failed installs of windows. I used to delete and install CounterStrike every week after a match to keep the installs fresh and bug free. STEAM has never once said anything

In my experience, many of the issues people have with STEAM are their own. I had a few friends at college who swore STEAM was the devil because they couldn't do x. I showed them how, and they now use it with ease. Sure, the HL2 launch was a disaster, and the Total War problems probably could have been solved by some clearer language, but 99% of the time, it just works. With no hassle. Online or off.

All i care about for CivV is the steam version doesn't use the boxed version's DRM, like say Bioshock 2 or Assassins Creed 2.

Yes, that would make the Steam version much more attractive and it would probably satisfy both sides of the divide here in this thread.

 

[azzaman333]

Are you trolling me or did you not properly read what I wrote. An "offline mode" to me implies the program at least needs to be running. From the info I have read in this thread, it seems that steam-based games need Steam to be running in the background. If steam-based games ACTUALLY mean that Steam simply is the method to install them and after that Steam has no effect, then I would be quite misguided and have been making wrong assumptions.

Using capital letters makes your response look more like an emotional one than a reasoned one.

Steam games need steam to be running in the background. It's currently taking up 14Mb of my RAM.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I happily play BtS with nothing of the sort running in the background.

(If I'm not mistaken, the latest patch 3.19 ensures not even any DRM is running, correct?)

By the way, it seems to me when playing BtS on the largest mapsizes and late-game, any RAM counts. Even 14MB could make a difference.

 

[azzaman333]

I happily play BtS with nothing of the sort running in the background.

(If I'm not mistaken, the latest patch 3.19 ensures not even any DRM is running, correct?)

By the way, it seems to me when playing BtS on the largest mapsizes and late-game, any RAM counts. Even 14MB could make a difference.

I could happily play BtS without it running in the background as well. I choose not to because I use steam friends rather frequently.

And the 14mb wouldn't really make a difference, apart from prolonging the crash by however long it takes for Civ4 to leak the additional memory.

 

[Chalks]

When you attach enough qualifiers to any category (e.g. 30 year old coffee drinkers who use an internet cafe and have a cat) of course it's going to be a tiny minority!

Gamers who do not have internet access at their house are a minority.

Out of that minority, most of them own a laptop that they can take to an internet cafe or to starbucks, so they would be able to activate just fine. Those who don't, are an even smaller minority.

Out of that even smaller minority, pretty much every single one of them will have a phone line. They can simply plug their computer into the phone line and use a free trial dial up account to activate the game at absolutely no cost. The number of people in this situation who also do not have a phone line is an absolutely minuscule minority.

Of that minuscule minority, most of them will have friends who DO have internet access, so they could take their PC round to borrow their internet access once to activate the game.

And if you can't do that, then you are in such an absolutely minuscule minority that they could not possibly justify anyone changing their development plans to cater for them.

I do not believe you are part of that minuscule minority. I don't think I'm ever going to meet someone who is part of that minority, because it is so tiny and statistically unlikely for me to meet them.

Which of the above categories do you fit into? Because I am very sure that you could activate this game if you just stopped and bothered to read what I was trying to say instead of just skimming and reiterating that you don't consider yourself to be in a minority because you don't like the idea.

Can I also point out that the people who passionately desire this game to be steam-only is a tiny minority?

That may certainly be true. But that's not what this argument is about. You might think that's what this argument is about, but that's just because you've not been paying any attention.

Civ 5 is going to have DRM. The people arguing for Steam in this thread are arguing for it because they recognise that Steam is the best quality modern DRM they could choose.

You might think you're arguing that Civ 5 should be DRM free by saying "Steam is bad" but you're not. You're just saying Steam in particular is bad. Which just means that if they listen to you, they'll pick some other DRM product and you'll be just as screwed as ever. Except we all will be, because the DRM product will probably be of significantly worse quality with more draconian limitations.

Feel free to hate DRM - but if they choose to have one (and they will), I really pray that they choose Steam.

 

[renntiz]

I'd just like to say that I'd rather Firaxis force me to connect to Firaxis' server everytime I start Civ5 than have Steam (of course I'd rather not have to do either). It's bad and just because it's slightly better than other silly DRM out there doesn't make it any good.

 

[azzaman333]

Steam works fine for Counter Strike and Team Fortress, why wouldn't it work fine for Civ?

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Steam is evil and there are people who don't want it.
End of story.

Its like buying a car and being told that you also have to get a free train, aircraft and 300 Spartans to ride in the back. Its intruding on my otherwise strictly controlled process list and its evil.


DRM it self is bad, but that is another story.
Statistics show that a large portion of pirates come from the population that does not have the money to pay for the game or the population that legally pays and than gets a noCD crack so they can play without messing with the DRM.

Think about it. Its people who would not play the game at all and people who want to play but are being ****ed up by the DRM.