[BTS] Willem-Shadow Game-Learning mode

[J F Muggs]

Okay. I'll try this Shadow Game thing once though I'm definitely not certain my real life/game temperment is actually made for this. I may only make it to 1000AD before my ego gets in the way and/or I get frustrated with the way things are going and drop the game to start another; no promises.

What I am looking to get out of this game, that is, I want to benefit from comments offered given the following considerations.
0. I have NO aspirations of playing above the Noble difficulty level. None. I am a simple guy. If I can enjoy a game on "normal" settings (no advantage given to the player or the AI), I play it. If it's not enjoyable there, I don't. (To be honest, that's what's semi-intimidating/semi-frustrating about these Forums. So many play on levels way above Noble and say the strategies used on Noble don't apply at times. I don't have the background knowledge to differentiate properly.)
1. I'd like to see how others think given the same info.
2. I'm particularly interested in seeing how the economy develops. I'm always flirting with the edge of bankruptcy/STRIKEs.
3. Type or game I like playing: I generally play towards Domination/Conquest Victory Conditions. I'd like to continue with that type of game.
4. Wonders: I need to improve my understanding of how, when, why do I build or try to capture them.
5. Cities: I probably build too many too early. My cities mostly tend to be hybrids, not specialty cities. From a certain perspective, I'm probably building too many things in each. I need to learn how to specialize them and when to start actually doing so... right at the beginning or do you start and then retrofit/retro-build to specialize.
6. Great People: I don't seem to produce Great People at nearly the rate AIs/other players do. GS, in particular, tend to be absent from my games. Um....???
7. Diplo: I trade alright when I do trade, but probably tend more to an isolationist strategy (let 'em think they are out-teching me but I'll out-build them unit wise and crush them into oblivion [oops, did my inner-Arnold just escape?). Um, yeah, except I don't chop/rush-build efficiently. Show me how this works without using exploits, please.

Given the above, here's how I set up this game:
Difficulty: Noble
Leader: Willem (picked him specifically for CRE/FIN combo,
been playing him a bit more frequently recently,
generally considered [at least on the forum wrtieups, it seems]
one of the easier Leaders)
Size/Speed: Standard/Normal (I am NOT used to this size or speed @ all.)
Map: Pangea (definitely NOT my preferred map)
Game conditions: Barbs on/Huts on/No random events
Mods: see screenshot

Starting position/screen


My initial thought is it's a mediocre start. Lots of floodplains, Gold resource but... And that's where the brain freeze begins.

I'm thinking I should move 1SW to get closer to the Gold and settle on the river. It puts me halfway between the Wheat and the Gold. The disadvantage is it eats up a turn start-wise. Starting with Agri is gonna help, though Willem's Fishing Tech start doesn't jump out as particularly helpful right now. After settling, I'll begin a Worker. While he's "cooking", the city should "pop" and I'll improve the Wheat tile.

I'll send the Warrior 2S fogbusting, then decide where to go based on what he shows.

Okay. This has gotten way longer than I intended.
I hope to play and post at least once every 6 hours, We'll see how that goes.
Waiting isn't my strong suit...

 

[elmurcis]

Actually I don't see good reason to move - wet Wheat (5 Food 1 Production 1 Commerce tile when farmed) and I guess from screenshot - 7 Flood Plains (if true - perfect number as it gives only +2 unhealthy, each Flood Plain inside BFC (5x5 without corners and center tile) gives 0.4 rounded down). 2nd city easily can be placed somewhere to south west to work gold and use some Flood Plains (farmed) for food if there isn't anything else. As William start with Agriculture already, going for Mining (and Bronze Working) most likely would be best early choise.

 

[J F Muggs]

Okay. That's what I'll do...settle in place.
Now to decide on Research path. Mining first sounds like a good idea, elmurcis.
Anyone else with advice?

I'm planning to make and post the move around Noon CDT US time (~2 hours from now.).

 

[salty mud]

Personally I'd have settled 1 SW to take advantage of the floodplains. The corn would still be in reach after your border pop, and you'd have a killer cottage beurocracy city. The fresh water and forests would help keep your health stable.

After mining aim for bronze working so you can get into slavery. Then research pottery for a granary and cottages.

 

[J F Muggs]

Spoiler Decision made. 1st move. :

4000BC- Settled in place (Amsterdam). Started BW research. Warrior 1S - revealed 2 wet Corn. Hut located 1SE of Amsterdam border.

 

[Pangaea]

This certainly isn't a normal Pangaea map. Green-hill gold and forested (plains) corn.

 

[Fippy]

Well if your warrior saw that before settling, moving 2S is miles stronger than SIP

Couple points that help you understanding why strategies differ between Noble and higher difficulties:

* AIs starting without Archery means you can rush them with your warrior if you like, not possible on Monarch+
So you might find that frustrating, but comparing games is hard if "worker first" is not optimal on Noble but true for other difficulties.

* Maintenance costs are low on Noble, you can easily over-expand here If you settle 10 cities on Immortal thou without developing your land well and making good
tech choices, you could go broke.

* Tech speed is different, and so are players decisions like should i give prio to Alpha myself, or wait until an AI gets there?
Same for tech usefulness, usually you would waste time with waiting for HBR and can use chariots instead on Noble, but on Immortal you would want HAs.

Ofc you can play as you like, but most would suggest picking Monarch.
It's still on the easier side of Civ, but strategies can be compared better if AIs start with Archery and so on.

 

[Chase_2_Rabbits]

What I am looking to get out of this game, that is, I want to benefit from comments offered given the following considerations.
0. I have NO aspirations of playing above the Noble difficulty level. None. I am a simple guy. If I can enjoy a game on "normal" settings (no advantage given to the player or the AI), I play it. If it's not enjoyable there, I don't. (To be honest, that's what's semi-intimidating/semi-frustrating about these Forums. So many play on levels way above Noble and say the strategies used on Noble don't apply at times. I don't have the background knowledge to differentiate properly.)
1. I'd like to see how others think given the same info.
2. I'm particularly interested in seeing how the economy develops. I'm always flirting with the edge of bankruptcy/STRIKEs.
3. Type or game I like playing: I generally play towards Domination/Conquest Victory Conditions. I'd like to continue with that type of game.
4. Wonders: I need to improve my understanding of how, when, why do I build or try to capture them.
5. Cities: I probably build too many too early. My cities mostly tend to be hybrids, not specialty cities. From a certain perspective, I'm probably building too many things in each. I need to learn how to specialize them and when to start actually doing so... right at the beginning or do you start and then retrofit/retro-build to specialize.
6. Great People: I don't seem to produce Great People at nearly the rate AIs/other players do. GS, in particular, tend to be absent from my games. Um....???
7. Diplo: I trade alright when I do trade, but probably tend more to an isolationist strategy (let 'em think they are out-teching me but I'll out-build them unit wise and crush them into oblivion [oops, did my inner-Arnold just escape?). Um, yeah, except I don't chop/rush-build efficiently. Show me how this works without using exploits, please.

1) My first though is that this a great looking map, a premium start. Lots of lovely flood plains for our FIN cottages. Gold in sight. Two grain resources to manage the flood plain unhealthiness.
2) Economy management should be easy here: FIN flood plain cottages.
3) Pangaea maps are perfect for Domination/Conquest. Should be ample opportunity to mix it up early in the game.
4) I'd recommend largely ignoring wonders - especially if you're going for a conquest win. Most aren't worth the opportunity cost of building. There are some (Pyramids and Great Library come to mind) that can be game changers, but it's all situational. We're not IND, let's see what resources this map offers us.
5) Yeah, try not to over-expand too early. This map offers us a strong early economy, though. We should have the resources to REX effectively if that's appropriate to the map.
6) Great People aren't my strong point either; I will say that we get cheap libraries being CRE, so finding a city to run 2 scientists to get us a fairly early GS to build an Academy in Amsterdam should be no problem.
7) I doubt diplo is going to be much of a concern here; we're going to be too far ahead in tech and/or be too big and powerful for anyone to be a serious threat on Noble.

My thoughts on settling is that SIP is fine here. 1 SW gets more floodplains for a future monster bureau cap, but becomes a weaker early game settler/worker pump losing the 2 rivered green hills.

I'd tech mining first. First 3 tiles to improve are the wheat and the 2 green hills. After mining, it's either BW or TW then Pottery. We don't have much forest to chop, but it's useful to unlock slavery and check for copper. I think the timing will work well if we go mining, BW, TW, pottery. Pottery should be done just in time for us to put down a cottage once the second green hill is done.

 

[J F Muggs]

Sorry about the ~24-36hh absence. I've been trying to play this map size and speed offline after an overnight hospital visit (chest pains)/observation.
I appreciate the replies and input.

Unfortunately, I just can't get the hang of this setup. It just doesn't feel right for me - things are happening faster than I anticipate, research&build times don't "compute" for me as far as planning and anticipation go, and neither dealing with barbs nor developing the economy has worked in any sense (played 4 games out to 0AD with less than acceptable results).

So, um.... I'm going to shut this down here and now as this setup just doesn't work for me at all. My frustration level maxed out way quicker than I thought it might... but I did warn ya'll this could happen.

I'll keep lurking and trying to incorporate stuff I read here somehow.

 

[elmurcis]

Take it easy, this is complex but still - just game And hope all is fine with health

 

[Pangaea]

Sorry about the ~24-36hh absence. I've been trying to play this map size and speed offline after an overnight hospital visit (chest pains)/observation.

Sorry to hear that, it sounds serious. Hope you are okay!