Natan35
Mayor of St. Natansburg
Well than, it'll be a learning experience. The more people involved= the better.
[WIP] Horsemen of the Apocalypse: Hunnic and Mongol Revision + More(?)
- Thread starter Kerfuffle
- Start date
Ah, we'd be in the same boat. I tried coding before and cuoldn't wrap my head around it but I'm trying to learn at least some stuff this time around. Also can't leave my ideas as ideas forever, so I thought might as well give things a go!
That's the way I am. I figured that just sitting on the pile of ideas longer ain't going to do anything to make them a reality. Here's to hoping all the compatibility checking I did back in my Minecraft modpack making days might come in handy.
Let me know if you ever feel up for it, I'd be happy to help(though I'll be quite busy for a while with a batch of other plans first)
With study in the way, and the fact that it's going to take a fair amount of time to learn the modding ropes (so I can atleast have an idea what is even going on) there's no rush for me anyways. I'll be sure to be hanging around.
Even then, every Chinggis-era Khan was a Noyan before they were given land - each had to carve it for themselves first. Besides, important figures like Kitbuqa, Tsubodei, Jebe, Khasar, etc. remained only as generals in their lives - but had the same amount of influence as the Khans themselves. Of course, this is your design and decision to make - I'm just presenting my own opinion.
Kerfuffle
King of the Whale Sharks
Noted, and thanks for the input. I might ask you for some info on other things whenever I get around to working on Mongol (or Steppe civs in genenral) again.
ldvhl
ніщо
- Joined
- May 15, 2013
- Messages
- 2,208
Eh, I'm pretty much in the same place and I might be releasing a civ soon.
Howard Tafty
Minister-Chairman
Well Kerfuffle if you ever do need help then you can always employ some nobody like me 
Kerfuffle
King of the Whale Sharks
@Howard: Thanks! I'll be sure to ask for help when I need it.
After muchpainful searching, I've finally stumbled upon some pages describing specific military units from Western Xia after finally realising that google searching the Chinese script on the Chinese wikipedia pages is a lot more helpful than trying to search things in English (so many sites redirecting to the same fashion website... I don't even...).
That being said, google translate is of course quite bad, though I can sort of get the gist of what's being said but there's still some things that are hard to get a grasp on. Would anyone be willing to roughly translate and summarise what's being said on these pages? They don't need to be very detailed, just a very quick and basic outline of what's being said.
These two are on the same thing (the Iron Kite cavalry):
Link1 | Link2
And this one's on something that seems very similar to the Camel Gun (though with a catapult of some sort):
Link
EDIT: Something in particular I'd like to know from the last article is whether the 'Splash Xijun' as it seems to be called when google translates it: 1. Is there a better translation of this name, and 2. Is this a Western Xia weapon or a Song weapon?
EDIT2: From the google translation of this page, this seems to have a bit more information about the camel-catapult, at least slightly more indepth: Link
After much
That being said, google translate is of course quite bad, though I can sort of get the gist of what's being said but there's still some things that are hard to get a grasp on. Would anyone be willing to roughly translate and summarise what's being said on these pages? They don't need to be very detailed, just a very quick and basic outline of what's being said.
These two are on the same thing (the Iron Kite cavalry):
Link1 | Link2
And this one's on something that seems very similar to the Camel Gun (though with a catapult of some sort):
Link
EDIT: Something in particular I'd like to know from the last article is whether the 'Splash Xijun' as it seems to be called when google translates it: 1. Is there a better translation of this name, and 2. Is this a Western Xia weapon or a Song weapon?
EDIT2: From the google translation of this page, this seems to have a bit more information about the camel-catapult, at least slightly more indepth: Link
For link 1:
The Iron Sparrow hawks were founded by Li Yaun Hao as the armored cavalry regiment of the Western Xia. They also served as bodyguards for the highest ranking Western Xia rulers/people of power, but later they turned into the body of the Western Xia army. They were used to charge and break-up the enemy's army (winged hussar basically).
(the second paragraph is really hard... sorry)
Cavalry are an important part of a military state (???maybe), and in the hilly terrain infantry are more useful (makes no sense to be in this article). Somthing about how they armor themselves that make they very effective (gives no reasons, just says it made them effective). They hacked and whooshed (I guess it means to swing?) at enemies, but they did not stab. They used hooks to hang or catch (people), even though it is hard to knock down horsemen (I don't think this is true... could be the opposite). (literally just a list of what was just said). They used to go to battles to displace and confuse enemy troops. Infantry was used in conjunction to hold the lines.
Hope that helped! even though it makes minimal sense
The Iron Sparrow hawks were founded by Li Yaun Hao as the armored cavalry regiment of the Western Xia. They also served as bodyguards for the highest ranking Western Xia rulers/people of power, but later they turned into the body of the Western Xia army. They were used to charge and break-up the enemy's army (winged hussar basically).
(the second paragraph is really hard... sorry)
Cavalry are an important part of a military state (???maybe), and in the hilly terrain infantry are more useful (makes no sense to be in this article). Somthing about how they armor themselves that make they very effective (gives no reasons, just says it made them effective). They hacked and whooshed (I guess it means to swing?) at enemies, but they did not stab. They used hooks to hang or catch (people), even though it is hard to knock down horsemen (I don't think this is true... could be the opposite). (literally just a list of what was just said). They used to go to battles to displace and confuse enemy troops. Infantry was used in conjunction to hold the lines.
Hope that helped! even though it makes minimal sense
Kerfuffle
King of the Whale Sharks
Ah thanks for the translation though I managed to find a bit more info on the Iron Sparrowhawks a while ago and made some updates to their design (though I'm still tinkering their design; would you happen to have suggestions?. As much as I'd love it to force retreats, it'd be too similar to the Winged Hussar). However details on the Camel Mounted Catapult (Xi-Fang, is what I've read it was called somewhere) seem to elude me. The only things I've found out about it are that it's either mounted or carted by Bactrian Camels and is a smaller version of the Xuanfeng Pao (Cyclone/Tornado/Whirlwind Gun); with mobility advantage in the desert over horses due to the softer hooves of a camel as opposed to the harder ones of a horse. However the first half of this page seems to be an extract from a scholarly article I and in google translate it seems to make a lot more sense than the first couple of links I posted: link. This page seems to call it a 'Throwing Hi', though from previous translations of the Iron Sparrowhawks on Google, they translated into 'Iron Kite' so it could be wrong. Could you perhaps confirm this and translate the physical descriptors? The help would be greatly appreciated
On a side note: I'm thinking of having the Iron Sparrowhawks as a Decision based unit that's a reward for re-organizing the sate/military. However the Iron Sparrowhawks seem to be much more famous than the Xi-Fang, and used in greater numbers too - The Xi-Fang was apparently the artillery division of Western Xia but they were the smallest group of the military (I can't seem to find a source to back this up though). I think there are more descriptions both of these units in the 'History of Song' (1343?) but I'm not sure where to find a translated copy. Some people a few years ago on the Total War forums have mentioned it and used it to describe various parts of the Western Xia's military but it's hard to find more sources on the stuff.
So all this brings me to a little conundrum: The Iron Sparrowhawks would be easier to model and find art/research references for, however the abilities might not necessarily fit in with the rest of the civ; on the other hand the very idea of the Xi-Fang is very interesting and the design fits in quite well with the civ but is hard to find solid research on (except for one scholarly journal that I can't seem to get my hands on).
I suppose I could just drop the Xi-Fang for the Iron Sparrowhawks and transfer/tweak some abilities to it:
- +1 Movement for adjacent melee units can stay because they worked a lot with infantry (maybe add some rough terrain related bonuses to boot?).
- Instead healing adjacent units when near a trade route, it could gain or provide combat/gold related bonuses since the Tangut often raided trade routes for political gain during the period before they established their own Dynasty.
Does anyone have suggestions or thoughts they could give?
I PM-ed you but I might as well post it here to get it out in the open.
Having skimmed through the materials you gave me:
Xuanfeng Pao in Chinese is 旋風砲, literally whirlwind catapult.
泼喜军 or 潑喜軍(in traditional Chinese) is the name of the battalion that specialized in camel-mounted whirlwind catapult . For the sake of discussion I will just call it "Camel-mounted catapult"
For this page, Here is the brief translation:
After killing Genghis Khan with an poisoned arrow in a skirmish, Western Xia was ravaged and destroyed by the vengeful Mongolian troops, and so were all the records about the construction of Camel-mounted catapul. But based on scattered reports, the Camel-mounted catapult was invented as an improved version of the Song Dynasty Catapults.
Western Xia was a major breeding ground for Bactrian camels. The nomadic Tangut people tried to let camels carry the cart to make up for the clumsiness of the heavy machines. It was less powerful, but also required less engineering and was more ready-to-use. These camel-mounted catapult possessed much more mobility and firing speed than its Song Dynasty's counterpart.
A camels' loading capacity is limited. It is deduced that the generated strength and range of the catapult would not exceed 150kg and 100m. (FYI an average medieval trebuchet fires at a force and range of 200kg/300m) The reduced firepower was compensated with its versatility of use not limited to siege warfare. It was recorded that the mounted catapult was used against the heavy-armoured troops of the Song Dynasty as well.
Yet, the fact that the battalion comprised only of 200 soldiers hints obliquely that it requires huge maintenance cost.
I am really excited about this unit. It is unique and has perks that not something other UUs possess. But I wonder how you would be able to build the model and the unit icon? For what it's worth I do interested in helping as I build models and draw pictures for a living.
Having skimmed through the materials you gave me:
Xuanfeng Pao in Chinese is 旋風砲, literally whirlwind catapult.
泼喜军 or 潑喜軍(in traditional Chinese) is the name of the battalion that specialized in camel-mounted whirlwind catapult . For the sake of discussion I will just call it "Camel-mounted catapult"
For this page, Here is the brief translation:
After killing Genghis Khan with an poisoned arrow in a skirmish, Western Xia was ravaged and destroyed by the vengeful Mongolian troops, and so were all the records about the construction of Camel-mounted catapul. But based on scattered reports, the Camel-mounted catapult was invented as an improved version of the Song Dynasty Catapults.
Western Xia was a major breeding ground for Bactrian camels. The nomadic Tangut people tried to let camels carry the cart to make up for the clumsiness of the heavy machines. It was less powerful, but also required less engineering and was more ready-to-use. These camel-mounted catapult possessed much more mobility and firing speed than its Song Dynasty's counterpart.
A camels' loading capacity is limited. It is deduced that the generated strength and range of the catapult would not exceed 150kg and 100m. (FYI an average medieval trebuchet fires at a force and range of 200kg/300m) The reduced firepower was compensated with its versatility of use not limited to siege warfare. It was recorded that the mounted catapult was used against the heavy-armoured troops of the Song Dynasty as well.
Yet, the fact that the battalion comprised only of 200 soldiers hints obliquely that it requires huge maintenance cost.
I am really excited about this unit. It is unique and has perks that not something other UUs possess. But I wonder how you would be able to build the model and the unit icon? For what it's worth I do interested in helping as I build models and draw pictures for a living.
Hoop Thrower
Cyberbolivarian Inkarri
I'd say "Camel Catapult" should be enough as the mounted part is pretty much a given. By the way, sounds like an awesome unit to bring into the game!
Yes. If Camel Catapult is to be introduced in the game, I suggest making it a unit like a horse-archer. Because of it's unique construction, the unit should gain a promotion called, "Whirlwind" which carries over upon upgrading.
As for the Camel Catapult, it should be made to address its mobility and short range. Here is my suggestion:
As for the Camel Catapult, it should be made to address its mobility and short range. Here is my suggestion:
I think the Sparrowhawks are just another mail-clad heavy cavalry unit that most of the Civs across the globe would have. The only thing that makes them special is how they cover both their horse and the rider with one continuous piece of armour so that upon death the horse could still ride on. I think this in gameplay terms can be interpreted as endurance and reliablity.
What you had here already tells what the unit is.
Also here, I see you want the UU to interact with TR, but is it too op? and I don't see AI can understand enough to fight battles along the trade routes so this could become an human-only exploit.
Kerfuffle
King of the Whale Sharks
Thanks for the translation and feedback Wiley! Much appreciated
As for the 3D model of the uinit, when I had a lack of sources I had a few options that I was going to go with:
- The catapult itself is mounted on the back of the camel with people on the ground following it (but this was dropped since the unit could move fast)
- The same except the people are riding a cart behind the camels
- The catapult is on a cart instead, pulled by the camels and worked by people on the cart
The second and third options are what I'm going for, though it'll require some custom animations
and models. I can do models and animations in Maya but I haven't used Blender before (of which is what most modding tutorials reference), but I'll give it a go and see what it's like. I'll ask for help on it if I find I'm having trouble with it.
Yeah I've been thinking about it and I'll just leave them as an E&D unit, or alternatively if I ever do another Tangut civ they can find their home there since the Camel Catapult is much more interesting and unique.
Hrm, I didn't think of it that way before - thanks for pointing it out. Also thinking about it now, +1 Movement for the camel catapult on trade routes would mean it'd out speed adjacent friendly units, diminishing it's speed bonus to them so I think I can drop that as well.
Here's an updated design:
As for the 3D model of the uinit, when I had a lack of sources I had a few options that I was going to go with:
- The catapult itself is mounted on the back of the camel with people on the ground following it (but this was dropped since the unit could move fast)
- The same except the people are riding a cart behind the camels
- The catapult is on a cart instead, pulled by the camels and worked by people on the cart
The second and third options are what I'm going for, though it'll require some custom animations
and models. I can do models and animations in Maya but I haven't used Blender before (of which is what most modding tutorials reference), but I'll give it a go and see what it's like. I'll ask for help on it if I find I'm having trouble with it.
Yeah I've been thinking about it and I'll just leave them as an E&D unit, or alternatively if I ever do another Tangut civ they can find their home there since the Camel Catapult is much more interesting and unique.
Hrm, I didn't think of it that way before - thanks for pointing it out. Also thinking about it now, +1 Movement for the camel catapult on trade routes would mean it'd out speed adjacent friendly units, diminishing it's speed bonus to them so I think I can drop that as well.
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll replacing the +1 Movement and healing every turn for adjacent units with this.
Here's an updated design:
Thanks for the translation and feedback Wiley! Much appreciated
As for the 3D model of the uinit, when I had a lack of sources I had a few options that I was going to go with:
- The catapult itself is mounted on the back of the camel with people on the ground following it (but this was dropped since the unit could move fast)
- The same except the people are riding a cart behind the camels
- The catapult is on a cart instead, pulled by the camels and worked by people on the cart
The second and third options are what I'm going for, though it'll require some custom animations
and models. I can do models and animations in Maya but I haven't used Blender before (of which is what most modding tutorials reference), but I'll give it a go and see what it's like. I'll ask for help on it if I find I'm having trouble with it.
Also, I must clarify myself. I got the translation wrong about how the camels carrying a "cart"
According to an extract of the essay you sent me:
It says the catapult is placed on a camel saddle. There is no cart or whatsoever.
EDIT: It also says the projectile is as big as a fist. (which is quite small actually
)It says 2 guys are responsible for working with the torsion spring, another guy for aiming, and likely accompanied by a squad leader. So it is estimated that each camel catapult is operated by 3-4 soldiers.
By my imagination, it is a bit like the "siege elephant", but with 3-4 men operating it.
As for the firing animation, I think in reality the West Xia soldiers would likely follow this sequence:
1. the camel lies down,
2. 2 soldiers behind the camel turn the torsion wheel
3. Another 2 solders hanging out by the side help "aiming"
4. Projectile is shot
5. The camel stands back up again.
Just my two cents on the matter. You can always modify the unit to suit your customized civ better. Really the people operating the catapult can all be horsemen and it is all done on the camel-back and the horsebacks within seoncds.
Kerfuffle
King of the Whale Sharks
Thanks again for the info! With all this in mind, I'll aim to include 4 people in the model since it's also what most siege units have. I'm also thinking of placing idle camels in the back which don't have catapults on them that either carry the soldiers/supplies on their back - just to give the soldiers something to 'keep up' with the camels since it'd be a bit weird to see soldiers on the ground keep pace with camels that are technically moving faster than most ground units in the game. Unfortunately for those camels, they will be the first to go when the unit's health drops in-game. Sorry poor camels 
All that being said, I'm probably going to simplify the the process/model/composition to make it flow well in-game but I'll see what can be done.
Unfortunately for those camels, they will be the first to go when the unit's health drops in-game. Sorry poor camels All that being said, I'm probably going to simplify the the process/model/composition to make it flow well in-game but I'll see what can be done.
Thanks again for the info! With all this in mind, I'll aim to include 4 people in the model since it's also what most siege units have. I'm also thinking of placing idle camels in the back which don't have catapults on them that either carry the soldiers/supplies on their back - just to give the soldiers something to 'keep up' with the camels since it'd be a bit weird to see soldiers on the ground keep pace with camels that are technically moving faster than most ground units in the game.
All that being said, I'm probably going to simplify the the process/model/composition to make it flow well in-game but I'll see what can be done.
In reality any siege squad with a big machine always takes a century to mobilize. But in game we see they move as fast as the foot soldiers. So I'd say don't take this too seriously.
Hoop Thrower
Cyberbolivarian Inkarri
So basically this weapon is the grand, grand, (grand, grand, grand) father of the Zamburak.
Good reference.
