[WIP] Project Civ: A Quality-Oriented Civ Pack
- Thread starter Irkalla
- Start date
Androrc the Orc
Emperor
The point is in the player having the disadvantages of potentially lagging behind in tech be minimized. I actually think it's quite an interesting UA.
Irkalla
ENTP POWWWEEEEEER
Oh god Hittites are terrible because
I've ran the numbers. The only time it's really a relevant thing is when the civ is only minimally behind in tech.
Also, look at Ethiopia. Reward the player for not expanding out?
You're looking at it the wrong way. The point is, let's add in an equalizer. Ethiopia presents a challenge to that guy that thinks he can go ICS and just roll over everyone. Hatti would be a challenge to that guy that thinks he can get a tech jump from a goodie hut or from his unique trait (I'm looking at you, Babylon) and try to roll over everyone.
It's like, hey, I want to go small and tall and play a cultural game, but then there's big bad ICS Science guy trying to take my stuff! It's okay though, I can put up a decent defence against him.
If Firaxis is going to give civs bonuses to the most overpowered yield in the game, there should be something there to exist as an equalizer against it.
But, I do think the number will need playing with.
It's basically like this, except instead of Anti-Mage and Invoker, you have Suppiluliuma and Nebuchadnezzar respectively.
Link to video.
Drat! Foiled again!
But first, are you sure you weren't testing against barbarians or something? Or are you at least absolutely sure that you tested against a higher tech civ?
Irkalla
ENTP POWWWEEEEEER
Guys, I'm bumping because I'm considering other unique trait ideas for Sumer. I'd like your input.
So, here are the Unique Trait parts I've come up with. Tell me which ones YOU think go together. OR, come up with your own trait parts if you want. Just looking for input here.
Free Great Artist at X Tech (Current, Sumer's very pervasive culture)
Y% Bonus to Great People (Current, Sumer for some time seemed to be the only culture in the world producing epics and stories and such)
Grants free Pottery tech at the start of the game (by the time Sumer was a coherent cultural entity, they had Pottery, which they inherited from the Samarra culture)
Bonus from Farms with access to fresh water until Civil Service (Cradle of Civlization)
Units ignore terrain costs near River tiles. (I dunno, living around rivers you'd think they'd know how to navigate them.)
Also, I was originally considering giving Sumer a UA that would reflect their age. My idea for this was to give them a free settler when they found their first city (via a Palace replacement that gives a free unit.) Why? Because Sumer was already well established by 4,000 BC (turn 0.) I decided to move away from it because you only have a unique trait that lasts for one turn. But, it may have been powerful enough to warrant that. What do you guys think?
So, here are the Unique Trait parts I've come up with. Tell me which ones YOU think go together. OR, come up with your own trait parts if you want. Just looking for input here.
Free Great Artist at X Tech (Current, Sumer's very pervasive culture)
Y% Bonus to Great People (Current, Sumer for some time seemed to be the only culture in the world producing epics and stories and such)
Grants free Pottery tech at the start of the game (by the time Sumer was a coherent cultural entity, they had Pottery, which they inherited from the Samarra culture)
Bonus from Farms with access to fresh water until Civil Service (Cradle of Civlization)
Units ignore terrain costs near River tiles. (I dunno, living around rivers you'd think they'd know how to navigate them.)
Also, I was originally considering giving Sumer a UA that would reflect their age. My idea for this was to give them a free settler when they found their first city (via a Palace replacement that gives a free unit.) Why? Because Sumer was already well established by 4,000 BC (turn 0.) I decided to move away from it because you only have a unique trait that lasts for one turn. But, it may have been powerful enough to warrant that. What do you guys think?
Irkalla
ENTP POWWWEEEEEER
Alpha's out, check the Current Stuff in the OP.
Irkalla
ENTP POWWWEEEEEER
Looks promising! I've always wanted Akkadians instead of Sumerians (their language became dominant in the region, which says something), but this made me change my mind. Nice
The Akkadians only represent a hundred or so years of history. They pretty much died out with the first Sargonid Dynasty, but the Chaldeans/Amorites continued to speak their language. These are the people that would eventually form the political entities of Babylon and the Assyrians. Though, in Assyrian times, Aramaic gradually began to supplant Akkadian and Ugaritic and Elamite and all those other languages of the people whose tongues were confused (see tower of Babel, Sumerian history makes mentions that seem to be parallel with Biblical texts.)
Also, fun fact: Abra[ha]m, the founder of Judaism, was a Sumerian.
But by far, Sumerian Language was the gold standard of anyone with an IQ. It held the status in Mesopotamia, Anatolia, and what would become Persia that Latin held in Medieval/Renaissance Europe, all the way to the first century AD. That's about 2 millennia after it ceased to be spoken vernacularly.
Also, the Sumerians may very well have had an influence as far as present day Finland. While controversial, Sumerian (currently a language isolate) is beginning to be considered a Uralic language.
Before we can say there were an undeniably Sumerian people, there was a culture we call the Samarra culture. This culture may very well have been pre-Writing Sumerians. This was in North Central Iraq, between Baghdad and Nineveh. We know that there were migrations south... These people became the Sumerians. We also are somewhat certain there were migrations north. Evidence is coming out in favor of the theory that they settled in present-day Serbia, known to us as the Vincha culture.
The Vincha culture made their living off of a trade network, dealing primarily in a type of figurine that the Vincha made. They lasted for a while, but a people came from the Caucasus. These (perhaps horseborne) people spoke the One European Language, the one that would evolve over the ages to become the Greek, Italic, Germanic, Slavic, Gaulish, and Hittite languages. They were a warlike people, scattering the Vincha to the wind. If you look at a map of the Uralic languages, note their dispersal and lack of contiguity in their dispersion.
It could be said that, given all of the above turns out to eventually be fact, that the Sumerians had a great effect on the culture of Europe, and not just Mesopotamia.
Here's a little something for you to chew on, though. I'm planning on eventually making a one-city challenge scenario to show off my civs, focusing on Sumer, Elam, Babylon, Akkad, and Assur fighting to become the dominant force in Mesopotamia; with outside influence from Egypt and Hatti. The Army of Gutium will be included as a gag civ, basically player controlled barbarians gain culture by wrecking the cultural framework of other civs. City-states would be the many city states of Mesopotamia and the Near East, such as Ugarit, Ur, Lagash, Washshukanni (Mitanni,) Dilmun, Magan, and maybe a city-state representing the Indus Valley Civ. if I can squeeze it in. I'll probably go with some sort of victory condition SIMILAR to the steampunk scenario's, but a bit tougher. That's all in the future though. As in, not soon.
That's some thorough convincing, good read 
Going back a little: I do like the UA you selected out of your list of options. I think the great people bonus can be upped to 25% though. When comparing to Babylon, I don't think it's right to divide by 4 because of the number of specialist types. Great scientists are arguably the most powerful, and if over 1/4 of generated GP are scientists (it's usually more than that), Babylon's UA gives the higher bonus.
Free pottery would be interesting too, but useless for the AI, which gets it for free starting from King iirc anyway. Maybe a free granary instead of an artist? That would make it seem less like a Babylon spin-off. The artist will always put down a landmark anyway.
Going back a little: I do like the UA you selected out of your list of options. I think the great people bonus can be upped to 25% though. When comparing to Babylon, I don't think it's right to divide by 4 because of the number of specialist types. Great scientists are arguably the most powerful, and if over 1/4 of generated GP are scientists (it's usually more than that), Babylon's UA gives the higher bonus.
Free pottery would be interesting too, but useless for the AI, which gets it for free starting from King iirc anyway. Maybe a free granary instead of an artist? That would make it seem less like a Babylon spin-off. The artist will always put down a landmark anyway.
trystero49
Prince
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Attila gets free Animal Husbandry but the AI gets free Animal Husbandry anyway on I believe Emperor and higher. As long as Free Pottery comes with an extra bonus it should be fine.
Irkalla
ENTP POWWWEEEEEER
The GP bonus scales HARD late game. It got to the point to where I never left a golden age because of GA's. I'm not even joking.
I think what I need to do is give a better bonus, then have it expire. Maybe giving a different bonus after expiry. What do you think?
Oh wow random city names Oh BOY
I Guess the indirect unhappiness reduction from faster razing helps when you're going dom though.
I think what I need to do is give a better bonus, then have it expire. Maybe giving a different bonus after expiry. What do you think?
Oh wow random city names Oh BOY
I Guess the indirect unhappiness reduction from faster razing helps when you're going dom though.
Yes, that would work. A different bonus afterwards is not needed I think, as is the case with France. It also fits with Sumeria being ancient. Say you double GP generation until the Renaissance: you will be left with GP tile improvements that will take over the function of "bonus". That's a pretty short time frame though, and it pushes the player too much towards Freedom. So yeah, idea for illustration only
Irkalla
ENTP POWWWEEEEEER
Yes, that would work. A different bonus afterwards is not needed I think, as is the case with France. It also fits with Sumeria being ancient. Say you double GP generation until the Renaissance: you will be left with GP tile improvements that will take over the function of "bonus". That's a pretty short time frame though, and it pushes the player too much towards Freedom. So yeah, idea for illustration only
Because the Aztecs aren't forced Honor/Auto and India isn't forced Tradition.
trystero49
Prince
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You forgot the +1 Production from pastures. While +1 Production from a few sheep doesn't matter much in the very late game, +1 Production in the early game helps give you an extra little boost. And if you play your cards right, that extra little boost may help you gain a large advantage.
Also, faster razing helps when you are trying to take down a runaway civ on Deity. While Random City Names is irrelevant, the Huns still get more of a bonus than "Free Tech". If you want to give Pottery as a free tech for a UA, might as well give a small perk alongside that as well.
Irkalla
ENTP POWWWEEEEEER
- Cradle of Civilization
- Grants free Pottery tech at the start of the game.
- 20% bonus to
Great People Generation - Units faster along rivers
Also, what do you guys think of an unofficial expansion pack? Was thinking instead of going forward from G&K to the renaissance/industrial times, that I'd go back to the ancient times, and add in a game phase BEFORE you get to found your first city. Maybe something where you get some sort of tribe or clan not much different form barbarians.
Instead of workers and settlers, I was thinking about somewhat combining them into a Gatherer. You get a couple of gatherers at the start. A Gatherer can gather food from tiles, and can "settle down" to make an encampment of sorts. Gatherers steadily contribute to producing another while settled down. Gatherers which are settled down can produce a couple of things, such as Clubmen and Stone Throwers. Gatherers may not defend themselves unless they are settled down.
Gatherers gather food from tiles. They stockpile this, and can give their stockpile to a settled down gatherer.
There would be an expanded tech tree back into pre-civilization that eventually converges onto agriculture. At this point, if a settled down gatherer has a certain amount of food, he may become a city, and founding your first city discovers any tech your unique ability gives. This brings you out of the pre-Civilization phase and into the game we're all familiar with.
The idea is, make there be something to get that initial city going. Make the player work for it. Give us some danger in founding our first city, and give us the possibility of failing at it. Let us found our cities first because we're better than those that will found their cities later. Let us fill in the blank between the menu screen and founding that first city.
UA looks good to me. Could even do without the river bonus.
A tribal, wandering, pre-agriculture start pops up from time to time in people's suggestions, so there is definitely a market for it. The main hurdle I see is making it meaningful yet not too complex for the AI, which may need to be updated in any case, to handle. And it doesn't need to stop at agriculture. If settled gatherers are treated as "light" cities, you could allow nomadic hordes up to the industrial age. Anyway, good luck
A tribal, wandering, pre-agriculture start pops up from time to time in people's suggestions, so there is definitely a market for it. The main hurdle I see is making it meaningful yet not too complex for the AI, which may need to be updated in any case, to handle. And it doesn't need to stop at agriculture. If settled gatherers are treated as "light" cities, you could allow nomadic hordes up to the industrial age. Anyway, good luck
trystero49
Prince
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What does "Units Move Faster Along Rivers" mean? Is it that trait that gives makes you expend only one movement point when entering a tile with a river? That UA sounds good, and like moriboe said, it could even do without the river bonus. Or with it.
As for a mod adding in pre-4000 BC content, there exists at least one. It's called "The Prehistoric Era". You may as well take a look at it and see what they've done if you are planning on making your own.
As for a mod adding in pre-4000 BC content, there exists at least one. It's called "The Prehistoric Era". You may as well take a look at it and see what they've done if you are planning on making your own.
Irkalla
ENTP POWWWEEEEEER
UA looks good to me. Could even do without the river bonus.
A tribal, wandering, pre-agriculture start pops up from time to time in people's suggestions, so there is definitely a market for it. The main hurdle I see is making it meaningful yet not too complex for the AI, which may need to be updated in any case, to handle. And it doesn't need to stop at agriculture. If settled gatherers are treated as "light" cities, you could allow nomadic hordes up to the industrial age. Anyway, good luck
The idea I had for that was starting with more than the amount of players necessary for the map size, then have it be a little like religion. For example, you're on a standard map. You may start with 12 or 14 players, while only 8 civs can be founded.
The losers of pre-agriculture would turn into native "small civs" that can't win the game. It could even be expanded upon by having some sort of colonization system where you "discover" and colonize a native land. Perhaps how you go about colonizing your land and treating the natives could affect you in a variety of ways, affecting your diplomacy with major civs, and possibly even leading to the colonies breaking away at some point and becoming a major civ. I dunno. I'll have to see what I can do.
Also, I was thinking of getting rid of civ select all together, and having it so that you don't choose your civ until you found your city.
God dammit, hurry up and get here dll
Though, chances are, I'd need to get someone to work with me that has a knack for AI.
My biggest fear about pre 4k is that it won't be long enough, or it will be too long. I was thinking of a 10,000 BC start, while aiming to have cities founded no earlier than the 5000's BC.
It means you ignore terrain costs along rivers, I think. It may treat river tiles as road, I'll have to give it a look.
Irkalla
ENTP POWWWEEEEEER
Alright guys, I'd like you to play a game against Eannatum and give me your feedback.
I played my first full game against him today. He was very competitive for city state favor, and very competitive in the space race. I think he won nearly every Culture quest as well.
However, what I didn't like too much was his city spam and lack of focus on building his cities up to get the most out of his UA. I'm trying to get Eannatum to where he'll build a small, focused empire rather than a wide one. He's somewhere in the middle right now.
I'm strongly learning toward refining his flavors in the next iteration of Sumer. After that, we'll look at the trait. Sound good?
After this, I'll get started on Hatti. Or Poland. Which one are you guys more willing to see next?
Pawel, I'll mark you down as Poland
I played my first full game against him today. He was very competitive for city state favor, and very competitive in the space race. I think he won nearly every Culture quest as well.
However, what I didn't like too much was his city spam and lack of focus on building his cities up to get the most out of his UA. I'm trying to get Eannatum to where he'll build a small, focused empire rather than a wide one. He's somewhere in the middle right now.
I'm strongly learning toward refining his flavors in the next iteration of Sumer. After that, we'll look at the trait. Sound good?
After this, I'll get started on Hatti. Or Poland. Which one are you guys more willing to see next?
Pawel, I'll mark you down as Poland
turingmachine
Emperor
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- 1,438
After this, I'll get started on Hatti. Or Poland. Which one are you guys more willing to see next?
Pawel, I'll mark you down as Poland
You don't even have to take a vote, people are crazy about Poland on almost every civ forum. Guaranteed, Poland would get the most "likes" of any civ you'll ever post.
