"Wokeist" - When people talk about progressivism without acquaintance

[Lexicus]

There is obviously a huge difference between being a popular and effective senator (winning re-election with a 11% lead) and hosting a podcast and some touring.
And to add, because people who were not in Minnesota in his 2008 election against Norm Coleman, it was ugly and brutal. The GOP was digging out audio recordings of writer room conversations from his time on Saturday Night Live to try and paint him as some sort of sex deviant. It was only after Franken was gaining newfound prominence after his very effective questioning of Jeff Sessions (I believe it was Franken's questions that forced Sessions to excuse himself from supervising the Mueller investigation) and Roger Stone admitted to looking for ways to smear Franken that Tweeden made a statement. Both Franken and Tweeden were active participants in a notoriously raunchy USO routine. (A routine were a few years earlier Tweeden was straddling and pretending to hump male comedians.) Subsequent investigations by the New Yorker and Politico make it clear that the allegations were pushed as a plot to smear Franken and Tweeden's statements on the matter show serious inconsistencies.
Other allegations against Franken - that he groped a woman while on stage at a grip-and-grimace, surrounded by people, cameras, and his wife - are ridiculous.

End result? Kirstin Gillibrand got to be tv-famous for a few minutes before fading into obscurity, and one of the best Democratic communicators got smeared and exiled.

Saying "Cancel culture isn't real because a former senator is now hosting a podcast" isn't the win you think it is.

I mostly agree with you on Franken but picking one person from a list of like 20 isn't the point you think it is either

 

[Hygro]

It’s a list cherry picked to show there are no consequences and as such has some questionable subjects. No Harvey Weinstein
but instead Aziz Ansari. Painted in the list to be rapey, but even the single article from the no-name publication denounced by its own Jane Doe as misleading failed to make even a compelling narrative.

Then we have Steven Seagal is still in movies and it’s like, no. Or some guy lost his job and went on tour to defend himself. That guy didn’t win.. Or some guy is accused and is still in the legal fight - but he’s filing lawsuits! And it’s like, you never want to find yourself ever filing lawsuits. Just filing, by the way.

This isn’t a failed movement.

 

[Ajidica]

I mostly agree with you on Franken but picking one person from a list of like 20 isn't the point you think it is either

I mean, on a list ostensibly designed to show how "cancelled" people are doing just fine, including people who were smeared and went from senator to podcast host suggests to me the author wasn't being particularly rigorous in her choice of examples.
Same with the inclusion of Aziz Ansari. As Hygro pointed out the article with the allegations was denounced by the source as misleading, and in the end described nothing more than an awkward hookup. If being in an awkward hookup is cancel-worthy, then I think almost all of us have engaged in cancel worthy activities!

 

[Evie]

I mean Weinstein's consequences these days are due to being tried and found guilty in a court of law. You know, that one benchmark anti-cancel-culture advocates keep saying cancel culture should abide by?

Seems more than just a little dishonest to call him "cancel culture victim" unless the new standard proposed for cancel culture targets is "innocent even if proven guilty".

 

[Narz]

I mostly agree with you on Franken but picking one person from a list of like 20 isn't the point you think it is either

Lol if even your cherry picked list isn't air-tight maybe the list isn't making the point...

 

[Narz]

As I see it, the point of the article, was to highlight that the narrative that Me Too "destroys" everyone accused of Me Too related misconduct, is way overblown at best and more or less false at worst. So your question, assuming it was directed at the article's point, was based on an incorrect premise. Its not that people should be destroyed by Me Too... its that they aren't, and the claim that they are is a lie.

No one's said everyone who's been aimed at w cancelling has been cancelled. And of course that list isn't comprehensive, it may as well be a forum post.

That's one aspect of a point that I often raise about allegations of racism. Pretty much no one self-identifies as "a racist".

I dunno, alot of white people I know think they're secretly subconsciously racist cause of some online quiz

 

[Lexicus]

Lol if even your cherry picked list isn't air-tight maybe the list isn't making the point...

Damn, you're totally right. Let me know where I can donate to the Victims of Cancel Culture Memorial Fund please.

This isn’t a failed movement.

What "movement" are you referring to? A twitter hashtag is not a movement.

 

[Hygro]

I mean Weinstein's consequences these days are due to being tried and found guilty in a court of law. You know, that one benchmark anti-cancel-culture advocates keep saying cancel culture should abide by?

Seems more than just a little dishonest to call him "cancel culture victim" unless the new standard proposed for cancel culture targets is "innocent even if proven guilty".

Weinstein is a rare top level success in the movement. There’s loads of partial successes. I don’t know who you are referring to in calling Weinstein a victim of cancel culture.

Damn, you're totally right. Let me know where I can donate to the Victims of Cancel Culture Memorial Fund please.



What "movement" are you referring to? A twitter hashtag is not a movement.

The movement where suddenly people felt empowered to speak out because others would have their backs rather than shame them, and the game changed from one where abusive men were the institutional gatekeepers to on the retreat. I don’t remember this many people getting tossed out in the 90s and 00s. Do you?

 

[Lexicus]

The movement where suddenly people felt empowered to speak out because others would have their backs rather than shame them, and the game changed from one where abusive men were the institutional gatekeepers to on the retreat. I don’t remember this many people getting tossed out in the 90s and 00s. Do you?

I don't, but I don't claim to have complete knowledge. I also don't think what you are describing constitutes a "movement."

I don’t know who you are referring to in calling Weinstein a victim of cancel culture.

I thought you said he had been left off the list of cancel culture victims.

 

[Berzerker]

Let's have a look at the devastating consequences of being cancelled in today's liberal woke culture

The devastating consequence of cancel culture is censorship

Tweeden's statements on the matter show serious inconsistencies.

noTweedenToo?

Both Franken and Tweeden were active participants in a notoriously raunchy USO routine. (A routine were a few years earlier Tweeden was straddling and pretending to hump male comedians.) Subsequent investigations by the New Yorker and Politico make it clear that the allegations were pushed as a plot to smear Franken and Tweeden's statements on the matter show serious inconsistencies.

She's smearing him? How dare that raunchy comedian humping liar!

Franken was sacrificed so the Dems could win Alabama against Roy Moore.

 

[Hygro]

I don't, but I don't claim to have complete knowledge. I also don't think what you are describing constitutes a "movement."

A bunch of people acted. Society was moved.

I thought you said he had been left off the list of cancel culture victims.

Oh. I didn’t realize I was supposed to read that list as victims. Are you thinking of them that way?

 

[Hygro]

In any event you will have to take your hot take to the Wikipedia metoo_movement talk page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MeToo_movement to tell them why they need to rename to the metoo_popular_hashtag

 

[Lexicus]

Oh. I didn’t realize I was supposed to read that list as victims. Are you thinking of them that way?

No.

 

[Hygro]

No.

So why did you bring that up?

 

[Lexicus]

So why did you bring that up?

So you don't think that Aziz Ansari or Al Franken are victims of anything? If not, why did you make a sarcastic comment about there being no justice earlier? I was under the impression that at least some people in this thread do believe that there are such things as "victims of cancel culture."

 

[Hygro]

So you don't think that Aziz Ansari or Al Franken are victims of anything? If not, why did you make a sarcastic comment about there being no justice earlier?

Because it’s a trash list, lying.

 

[Lexicus]

Because it’s a trash list, lying.

What is it lying about?

 

[Hygro]

What is it lying about?

That there’s no justice, and everything continued on as before.

That’s the point of the list. It was just blip in the careers of alllll these bad guys. “It should be noted he worked with Chappelle!” Grasping at straws, that’s the list is trash.

If nothing changes, then all of you shut up forever, because there’s no point in continuing down this path.

Except things did change, and trying to pad a list with a combo of people who didn’t do bad things and therefore were not canceled, with people who were canceled and are having their follow up careers presented as if they came out fine/even/ahead when they did not is a bad way of showing a good movement is a failed movement. Read that again if you need to.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

cancel culture is not a good movement, though. the ethics of punishing accused w/o evidence should be obviously terrible, and a subset of cancel culture involves that. the ethics of punishing people for expressing unpopular opinions outside of their work context is less obviously terrible, but still bad. it goes against a core principle on which this country was founded. a lesser form of mob rule.

 

[Lexicus]

If nothing changes, then all of you shut up forever, because there’s no point in continuing down this path.

I am not sure there's any point in continuing down the path of weaponizing misconduct, trumped-up or real, to in effect win territorial disputes within a space of limited elite institutional careers. Metoo cannot be a truly effective meme until it focuses more broadly on democratizing and decentralizing power in society rather than taking inequality for granted and just trying to correct for sexual or gender disparity within a regime of material inequality. Most women who don't have thousands of twitter followers, working in precarious jobs, are still just as vulnerable to these power dynamics as they were before.