Wolf Blitzer vs. Michael Moore

[Merkinball]

Just so long as it's thuroughly supported by the majority of Canadian's, and not exported here, I'm cool with it.

 

[Integral]

Captain Planet: Ok, so you're happy with it as long as you don't have to actually watch the money leave your paycheck and go to the government?

I'm honestly curious.

Integral

 

[emzie]

Captain Planet: Ok, so you're happy with it as long as you don't have to actually watch the money leave your paycheck and go to the government?

I'm honestly curious.

Integral

The taxes taken from my paycheque weren't much higher in Ontario than they are in Ohio. It's sales tax where I see the biggest difference.

 

[Captain Planet]

Captain Planet: Ok, so you're happy with it as long as you don't have to actually watch the money leave your paycheck and go to the government?

I'm honestly curious.

Integral

I have no problem with paying 14 cents on every dollar in Ontario to ensure my entire community receives basic and adequate health-care without having to worry about paying a hospital. I largely receive most of this money back when I claim my taxes and yes I feel all the better since I don't watch the money move. What is different between paying this tax and perhaps the tax you pay for road maintenance? Its the same in any economic situation, if you automatically have 5 bucks withdrawn from your account to save you hardly notice it. And mind you I pay my provinical government for my health-care, not the federal government.

 

[amadeus]

We lose an abundance of highly trained professionals to the United States each year.

Before Godwynn says it, they're... Free to Choose. Unsurprisingly, many of them choose the U.S., because we're less financially hostile to our medical professionals.

Your per-capita arguement proves nothing, especially since Canada has such a high proportion of rural communities suffering from lack of doctors.

That is no fault of the U.S., but a failure in Canada's policy. You say there is a lack of doctors in rural areas, but I thought you were supposed to have universal health coverage?

Canadians know fine well they pay for their health-care with their taxes. We collectively refer to this as free, since we do not physically move our money to a Hospital or to a Government. The taxes are automatic, expected, and thoroughly supported by the majority of Canadians.

Fine, but it is not free.

 

[emzie]

Before Godwynn says it, they're... Free to Choose. Unsurprisingly, many of them choose the U.S., because we're less financially hostile to our medical professionals.

It's not as bad with doctors as it is with other 'brainy' jobs.

That is no fault of the U.S., but a failure in Canada's policy. You say there is a lack of doctors in rural areas, but I thought you were supposed to have universal health coverage?

Well doctors are privately employed. If you were a doctor, would you set up shop in a village of 50 people in northern Alaska?

IIRC, the government does pay for doctors to make routine flights between these outposts.

Fine, but it is not free.

Nor is the fire department.

 

[Captain Planet]

Before Godwynn says it, they're... Free to Choose. Unsurprisingly, many of them choose the U.S., because we're less financially hostile to our medical professionals.


That is no fault of the U.S., but a failure in Canada's policy. You say there is a lack of doctors in rural areas, but I thought you were supposed to have universal health coverage?


Fine, but it is not free.

American hospitals offer outrageous accomodations and salaries to lure our doctors into the states. We are working hard to return these professionals to Canada, but many of them just work in the States and drive back home into Canada at the end of the day. It is the consequence of bordering a country with such a different style of health-care, if you may.

If the current programs in place work, hopefully many of these doctors will decide to practice in Canada again.

 

[skadistic]

Well doctors are privately employed. If you were a doctor, would you set up shop in a village of 50 people in northern Alaska?
.

If the show "Northern Exposure" is any indication of how much of a whacky time it would be I'd go in a heart beat. Who can argue with getting the cute girl and only working a few days a week.

 

[amadeus]

Well doctors are privately employed. If you were a doctor, would you set up shop in a village of 50 people in northern Alaska?

Supply and demand.

If I was living in Alaska, would I move to some place I wouldn't be able to access a doctor regularly? No, just as the same as I wouldn't move somewhere I couldn't access the Internet or get television at.

But even if I wanted to, then I suppose I'd try and form an agreement with a physician to arrange regular visits to that small village. I'd get the other people in the village to be a part of this, thus dividing up the costs and maximizing the benefit for everyone that volunteers to be part of that program.

IIRC, the government does pay for doctors to make routine flights between these outposts.

I'm sure that they do.

Nor is the fire department.

Of course.

 

[Captain Planet]

CNN claims Moore is loose with the facts. To prove this, an extremely well paid doctor obviously benefiting from the American style of "health-care" reports, in a segment headlined by Blizter "Reality-Check"

"Sicko throws some hard punches at the U.S. health-care system" is the first thing we hear, not mentioning of course that the documentary focuses on flaws in other visited countries as well.

It then interestingly omits some curious countries also in the top-ten ranking that might cause some questioning about Americans...

3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore

A "Healthy Look at the Facts" gives us one fact about Cuba; it ranks lower than the U.S and pays less per person.

So Americans pay about 6 grand more than Cubans and get shorter wait times for elective non-emergency procedues. What a deal I suppose for some Americans!

But thats not something you'll see in Sicko! I wonder why!

And in Canada you can wait a long time! Our Dr. doesn't tell us how long though, or why.

And the best argument we get from the that dude that gets interviewd, whats his name and affiliation again? It was only up for a couple of seconds... Paul, from the Deloitte group! What a great person to interview! Yeah, he repeats the typical argument, "they think its free! its not!"

Good Job CNN.

 

[skadistic]

IF Canada was such a great system it could keep its doctors right? I mean socialism > capitalism right?

If Canada can't compete in the fair and free market and hospitals rent out their empty wards to help cover costs how is that America's fault? Sounds like Canada can't compete.

 

[Whomp]

I heard a piece yesterday on NPR by Jonathon Oberlander discussing Sicko and the health care system.

Unfortunately, it hasn't loaded for listening yet.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11826524

One thing he mentioned that tells me we're in for change (the American way)was companies like Safeway discussing health care with their unions,

More specifically this...

They have established one of the fiercest rivalries in the American economy, attacking one another’s organizations through dueling blogs, newspaper advertisements and news conferences.

But this morning, in an extraordinary meeting in Washington, the chiefs of Wal-Mart Stores and the Service Employees International Union stood together and agreed on a series of goals for achieving universal health coverage, according to people briefed on the matter.

The meeting between H. Lee Scott Jr., the chief executive of Wal-Mart, and Andrew L. Stern, president of the S.E.I.U., which capped months of secret conversations, could be the beginning, however tentative, of a détente between the nation’s largest employer and its labor critics.

At least on one issue. But the issue — providing affordable health insurance — is arguably the biggest facing both Mr. Stern and Mr. Scott. Wal-Mart, which insures fewer than half its workers, has identified health care as potentially the biggest vulnerability to its image and business, and the S.E.I.U., one of the country’s biggest unions, has called it the No. 1 priority for its members.

So during today’s meeting, Mr. Stern and Mr. Scott announced a campaign to seek public acceptance of several principles of health policy. One goal is universal health coverage by a specific date, somewhere around 2012. Another is the idea of shared responsibility, emphasizing that individuals, businesses and government all play roles in financing health care and expanding coverage.

Executives from AT&T, Intel and several nonprofit organizations also participated in today’s meeting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/08/business/08walmart.html?ex=1328590800&en=431f96923632056c&ei=5088

Corporate America is looking to change the way things are paid and done.

 

[Phlegmak]

CNN claims Moore is loose with the facts. To prove this, an extremely well paid doctor obviously benefiting from the American style of "health-care" reports, in a segment headlined by Blizter "Reality-Check"

He's a doctor working for CNN. That doesn't invalidate his arguments in the least bit. I trust him more than Moore.

"Sicko throws some hard punches at the U.S. health-care system" is the first thing we hear, not mentioning of course that the documentary focuses on flaws in other visited countries as well.

No, not really. It attempted to focus on flaws in other countries and it turned out there were no flaws. Seriously, that's the picture the movie paints.

A "Healthy Look at the Facts" gives us one fact about Cuba; it ranks lower than the U.S and pays less per person.

So Americans pay about 6 grand more than Cubans and get shorter wait times for elective non-emergency procedues. What a deal I suppose for some Americans!

But thats not something you'll see in Sicko! I wonder why!

I don't know what you're trying to say here. I thought you were in favor of Michael Moore's movies and his stance? You lost me here.

 

[amadeus]

American hospitals offer outrageous accomodations and salaries to lure our doctors into the states.

There is no such thing as outrageous; we're paying them what the market determines is their value. It was in our interest to attract the doctor, and it was in his interest to come here and provide his services.

We are working hard to return these professionals to Canada, but many of them just work in the States and drive back home into Canada at the end of the day.

I don't know if the population density on the U.S.-Canada border is so much so that this is genuinely problematic to the Canadian health system.

It is the consequence of bordering a country with such a different style of health-care, if you may.

Have you ever heard of Radio Luxembourg? Luxembourg is of course that small country in the historically important Benelux region.

When radio became popular with consumers, Radio Luxembourg would cater that audience and would fund their operations through advertising; radio advertising was forbidden in the Benelux countries, as well as in neighboring France and Germany.

That's the power of the marketplace.

If the current programs in place work, hopefully many of these doctors will decide to practice in Canada again.

If they decide that it is in their best interest, they will.

 

[amadeus]

So Americans pay about 6 grand more than Cubans and get shorter wait times for elective non-emergency procedues. What a deal I suppose for some Americans!

But thats not something you'll see in Sicko! I wonder why!

Because Cuba's health care system is a disaster, caused by the planned shortages of the Cuban government?

 

[Captain Planet]

IF Canada was such a great system it could keep its doctors right? I mean socialism > capitalism right?

If Canada can't compete in the fair and free market and hospitals rent out their empty wards to help cover costs how is that America's fault? Sounds like Canada can't compete.

Canadians have long held a belief that a balance between the planned and free market economy is the best solution. And I would argue were much more towards the free market economy than Europe; less government intervention. It's hardly a matter of competition and you're extremely ignorant to suggest that the American government has ever practiced any form of free or fair policy with Canada.

 

[skadistic]

Canadians have long held a belief that a balance between the planned and free market economy is the best solution. And I would argue were much more towards the free market economy than Europe; less government intervention. It's hardly a matter of competition and you're extremely ignorant to suggest that the American government has ever practiced any form of free or fair policy with Canada.

Yes I'm ignorant. Where did I say anything about the American government? I didn't say that the government practiced free and fair trade with Canada. In fact the government has almost nothing to do with what hospitals pay doctors here in America. See the free and fair market isn't government controlled thats why its called the free market. And in this free market the doctors go to where it best serves them which happens to be in America where the free market dictates what a doctor is worth. Its all a mater of compatition and Canada can't compete.



Edit to add this tid bit.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9A0DE2D91739F932A35755C0A960948260

 

[Captain Planet]

Yes I'm ignorant. Where did I say anything about the American government? I didn't say that the government practiced free and fair trade with Canada. In fact the government has almost nothing to do with what hospitals pay doctors here in America. See the free and fair market isn't government controlled thats why its called the free market. And in this free market the doctors go to where it best serves them which happens to be in America where the free market dictates what a doctor is worth. Its all a mater of compatition and Canada can't compete.

You debate a socialized health-care system within the constraints of the free-market. These doctors are working in America because they get accomodated and paid astronomically more there. Their salaries are certainly not what the market dictates; they're extremely inflated because of drug companies in the United States which are supported siginificantly by your government. If the market dictated that their wages were appropirate we'd see Dental surgeons in the U.S. earning comparable wages to their European counterparts. Hardly competition but aggressive recruitment on behalf of the American medical community. All the good the free-market has claimed to have done in the ways of medical profession in the United States still leaves millions without healt-care, coming across the border regularly to Canada to seek treatment or cheaper drugs because unlike your idea of a free-market, we've constrained the ability of corporatism to infiltrate the quality of our lives.

 

[skadistic]

I debate that if Canada wants to keep its doctors it needs to do a better job at paying them what the market else where is willing to pay. Or stop complaining about how doctors are going and paid better some where else. If socialized health care systems are so great this shouldn't be a problem right? And those millions don't have health care still get it at the ER. CHeaper drugs is great in Canada. Now tell me how many drugs are developed there? Sure Americans pay more for drugs but I don't see you rejecting all those drugs Americans paid more to invent.

we've constrained the ability of corporatism to infiltrate the quality of our lives.

You've hamstrung your systems to keep up with others which is why your doctors are leaving or going on strike because the government is telling them they can only charge so much. If you want to keep your doctors from getting paid thats your problem just like its your problem they are leaving. In the mean time I will welcome all the doctors who want to come hear and get paid well. It really is great for America when Canada's "brain drain" goes to the capitalistic side of the street and leave socialism to fail.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNJMTQD3Hcs

I think the link speaks for itself.

Discuss.